Posted by VK3DMN for the information of those interested in BPL.
From WIANews to be broadcast on 2004 22 AUGUST 2004
Jim Linton VK3PC has uncovered an interesting, to say the least,
development that indicates potentially bad news.
Report
The future introduction of Broadband Powerline Communications (BPL) in
Australia could be on the condition that "less significant" HF radio users
such as radio amateurs and four wheel driver clubs would not be protected
from any interference it causes.
The Australian power industry has a real concern about the added expense
required to address interference that could affect amateur radio stations
and other recreational radio users.
Its arguments include that to remove amateur radio frequencies from a BPL
system will add cost and reduce the capacity and potential data rate.
The power industry is requesting that the Australian Communications
Authority (ACA) outweigh the concerns of recreational or "less significant"
HF radio users with the higher community benefit of providing greater access
to broadband-enabling technology.
The ACA, in response to the power industry concerns, is now examining the
legal possibility of allowing BPL networks to cause substantial interference
to "less significant" radio services, while other radio services would
continue to be entitled to interference protection.
Presumably if this becomes reality the Amateur Service could lose its
protection against harmful powerline interference too. After all, were are
in the eyes of some just a "less significant" radio service. This has been
Jim Linton VK3PC for WIA National News.
*comment by VK3DMN (Jabiru658).*
I expressed my concerns earlier in several threads that I believed that it was technically not possible to avoid interference to all existing spectrum users and still get a viable working BPL system. It seems that the BPL lobby groups are starting to realise that this may well be the case. And they have no doubt taken notice of the early BPL trials in a number of countries which were stopped due to interference to existing services. Said interference complaints have led to cease and desist (until fixed) orders in several places, and in others have led to trials being withdrawn.
Comments welcome.
I'm all for BPL, the thought of 10Mbit Internet here in this part of NSW is really mind blowing, however as i've always said, I don't wish for the amateur group to be distrubed like this, and as you said, the BPL people are starting to realise that it might not be viable to avoid using their spectrum (i'd happily take a bandwidth hit and put up with 1-2Mbit myself *shrug*), so what they're proposing to the ACA is the same thing that was proposed to the FCC - dwell in the past or accept the future, which is a pretty strong message really, particularly when considering the industry successful BPL could create, whilst it may not be "fair", it is very hard to deny them their wants when they take that angle.
This development seems very timely, I personally predict a major step for BPL availability before the end of the year, it really seems that it is accelerating incredibly quickly right now and i'm sure the BPL people want to limit this "hitch" as much as possible, as soon as possible.
Nza writes...
i'm sure the BPL people want to limit this "hitch" as much as possible, as soon as possible.
Unfortunately I don’t think that is going to be possible. I'll wager that it’s going to be constant complaining from all these amateur people and the like which is going to totally kill the development of BPL. Really I wish they would just forget them, and say bad luck. I know that’s callous (that’s what 6 years waiting for broadband will do to you) but frankly its for the greater good. To think that those pissy little amateur radio groups and the like are a key reason to what’s holding something like this back is infuriating. A bunch of old farts with nothing better to do than sit around having a yarn on the radios to each other. God, use a phone. As long as BPL doesn’t interfere with any important radio frequencies, this shouldn't even be an issue.
I know I’m sounding bitter but in the all the time I've been waiting for broadband I'm just starting to get pissed nothing ever goes my way. I'm sure many people here feel the same way. Frankly I’m amazed I could even get ISDN, I was thinking surely I will fall into the 2% of Australians who cant get it, while some guy out in the bush would get it and I couldn’t, so yeah that was a mildly pleasant surprise at the time. Anyway enough bitchin, I just needed to express myself to relieve some tension.
/rant
they just kicked the concept in perth, Its been up and running since 1998 and only a couple of hundred can get it in vic-park.
It's been losing money since western power bought the company back then (can't remember the name) and with the current electricity crisis in wa, eric ripper decided to cut western powers loses and dump the company.
i think the figure was about $66 million in the red
It was on the front page of the west last week
Really? I've never heard of that before, since 1998 eh? Must be based on pretty old technology, even most "field tests" are post 2000 and those can be considered irrelevant with the evolved PLC technology of today.
I posted this in the other thread, but i'm not sure many people checked it out, it is a great read:
www.rac.ca/news/barry.zip
NuttA writes...
Unfortunately I don’t think that is going to be possible. I'll wager that it’s going to be constant complaining from all these amateur people and the like which is going to totally kill the development of BPL.
I highly doubt anything bar a total ban will kill the development, PLC/BPL has a huge backing, it isn't going to go away overnight.
If it comes down to only amateur radio users who are affected, I agree it would be extremely selfish of them to prevent BPL from proceeding. This is highly likely to develop into a multi billion dollar industry for chip makers, ISP's, wholesalers, not to mention the benefit of real broadband where it couldn't previously reach before, if it only affects a few hobbyists and they get their way, then really, we are an even more pathetic country for broadband than I had thought. We need to embrace change where it can potentially improve the standard of living for the majority of Australia, not delay its inevitable arrival, this is a democracy after all :)
I'm surprised that BPL hasn't tipped over onto the political scene, it has in the US (Bush supporting it I think), but I guess there is still plenty of time for that.
OK, lets say for the sake of argument that the amateur radio spectrum, which btw is subject to international treaties is used for BPL, and Australia decides to operate in breach of international treaties (wouldn't be the first time a government decided that).
I don't personally believe this should happen, as I believe there are better ways to achieve BPL, but lets say it happens.
I see no arrangements for compensation.
I as an example have a small amateur radio station (cost around $5000 total), many amateurs have stations that have cost several times that, and some have stations running over $100,000 in cost.
If these are to be made unusable (and this will happen if BPL without interference protection is introduced) then these will effectively become unsalable (no amateur frequencies to use them on remember, so no one will want to buy them of course).
People would need to be compensated for this in a similar way to the gun buy back. Lets assume about 15,000 licensed amateurs in Australia at say $10000 average cost per station (there are more amateurs than that, but I am only basing my $ figure on what the 50 people in the local club own). I am ignoring for the moment those people who might attempt to claim compensation for wasted time and money spent in training ok ;-)
That is about $150,000,000.
I suspect the government would be unwilling to foot this bill... how would this effect the cost and viability of the BPL system?
*comments welcome as always*
What radio types are affected by this technology. We use UHF 2 way radios here all the time it's going to annoy a lot of people if they are affected by this technology.
I also wonder how it works on the different powerline types we have in the country with some people running on 3 phase others running off a 3 phase line but only have 2 phases going into the transformer and others using a swer(single wire earth return) line.
I hope some more development will sort out these problems and then everyone on mains power in Australia regardless of where you are will be able to get broadband.
See Ya
Surely BPL wont kill all amateur radio frequencies, cut the number down a fair bit maybe but not totally kill it. If so maybe they can do as was suggested earlier and shield some frequencies, the most commonly used ones at a performance hit. I'd be happy with a 5-6 megabit connection as opposed to 10mbit if that had to be done.
BPL - I thought it stood for "Broadband over Power Lines".
Begs the question why do they need Radio Frequencies for?
Bfrank writes...
BPL - I thought it stood for "Broadband over Power Lines".
Begs the question what do they need Radio Frequencies for?
It doesn't need radio frequencies. Its because BPL/PLC is distributed unshielded that it produces so much interference it kills certain frequencies.
The fact that you guys say Amatuer Radio users are being selfish is quite unfair. BPL technology has problems and until these are address I believe it shouldn't be allowed. You say Amateur radio should be sacrificed for the 'greater' good of BPL. To me that sounds insane. Is there a garentee that if BPL is used that it won't affect other things such as UHF 2 way radio? If they can't garantee that it should be taken back to the drawing board.
Don't get me wrong, I want fast internet as much as anyone else here. But not at the expense of other people cause that then would be selfish. In my opinion, if BPL hasn't matured enough to overcome all its problems it shouldn't be implemented. Cause thats just bad engineering.
Jeeves.
(I am in no way affliated with amatuer radio)
Don't get me wrong, I want fast internet as much as anyone else here. But not at the expense of other people cause that then would be selfish.
Well, isn't preventing BPL just as selfish? It would be at the expense of people too (probably much more), somehow I think widespread broadband is far more important to Australia myself. It sounds like a case of "we were here first", which hasn't exactly worked very well defending other aged technology.
Anyway, I'd like to see BPL flawless too, and as I said, I don't mind taking a bandwidth hit to prevent these issues if necessary, 512K would do me fine :P
I don't think it will come down to the amateur radio users killing BPL, from what they said, it simply sounds like "we're going to do this anyway, why not make it easier for us and just forget them?". I'm sure if it came down to it, they'd do whatever it takes to get BPL out there, they just want to make it as quick as possible and as easy as possible. They probably don't expect the ACA to agree with them, no harm in trying I guess (from their POV).
jabiru658 writes...
That is about $150,000,000.
In actual resale value? In other words, would each $10K system actual resell for that, or is that how much it costs new? (Or doesn't it matter?)
I was estimating replacement cost (but I'm perfectly prepared to accept that my estimate was anecdotally based at best).
In my particular case replacement cost is basically the same as purchase cost because most of my radios are current models. This appears to be the case more often than not with most of the local radio club members as well... although many also have older gear for sentimental reasons. Most amateurs I know have home stations, many have mobile stations and most have portable (or pedestrian mobile) units. Many have towers, beam antennas, antenna rotators and multiple antenna systems. I do not, I have a very limited antenna system. A typical value for a basic tower with basic triband HF beam, rotator and wire trap antenna would be about $5000.
One cannot use market value in a situation where the market is to be flooded with unusable items. I havn't listed the old spare gear (which is probably valued at another couple of thousand), and in comparison as I mentioned earlier in the thread my station gear is modest, and chosen from near the entry level... unlike many of the people in my local radio club.
A list of my modest station gear (I've used prices Andrews Communications are advertising, and they are one of the cheaper suppliers around).
Icom HF Transceiver/General Coverage Receiver. model IC-718 (Home station use) - $1199
Yaesu HF/VHF/UHF Transceiver/General Coverage Receiver, model 817 (Motorcycle, hiking Use) - $999
Icom HF/VHF/UHF Transceiver/General Coverage Receiver, model 706 (Car Mobile use) - $1349
Yaesu VHF/UHF Transceiver/Scanner, Model VX1 (Pedestrian use) - $299
Hustler 5BTV Multiband HF antenna $449 (home station use)
Comet VHF/HF antenna $129 (home station use)
Icom mobile tuner and multi band HF mobile antenna $900 roughly (last I checked, couldn't find an online price).
Mobile VHF/UHF car antenna $80.
Plus on top of this 2 power supplies... about $400?, SWR meters HF and VHF... about $300?, plus other sundry gear (no idea what the cable, wire, connectors etc etc would be worth).
Hope this puts the expenses people have made in perspective at least. Top End radio gear gear costs in excess of $5000 for a radio and $10,000 for an amplifier, and larger antenna systems end at what one can afford....
I would also like to add for those that believe that amateur radio is only about recreation use that amateur radio around the world is of great value in emergencies. A famous example is the first communications out of Darwin after cyclone Tracy were from amateur radio portable stations, and they continued to provide communications links for days afterwards while emergency services were swamped.
Many events are supported by WICEN (the Wireless Institute Civil Emergency Network)... radio communications for these events is provided for free by WICEN. Events that have benefited from these services include the Murray River Marathon, Various around victoria bike rides, Car rally events, The Scout Movements Jamboree of the Air (we at the local club are currently reconditioning the HF beam antenna at nil cost for the use of hundreds of scouts at the Field Day Jamboree later this year). I could continue... but I'm probably getting O/T ;-)
*comments welcome as always*
jabiru658 writes...
I would also like to add for those that believe that amateur radio is only about recreation use that amateur radio around the world is of great value in emergencies. A famous example is the first communications out of Darwin after cyclone Tracy were from amateur radio portable stations, and they continued to provide communications links for days afterwards while emergency services were swamped.
Many events are supported by WICEN (the Wireless Institute Civil Emergency Network)... radio communications for these events is provided for free by WICEN. Events that have benefited from these services include the Murray River Marathon, Various around victoria bike rides, Car rally events, The Scout Movements Jamboree of the Air (we at the local club are currently reconditioning the HF beam antenna at nil cost for the use of hundreds of scouts at the Field Day Jamboree later this year). I could continue... but I'm probably getting O/T ;-)
No, I don't think that you are getting off topic.
If BPL knock emergency frequencies off the air then that is a VBT (very bad thing).
I used to do a wee bit of volunteering for Coast Guard, manning radios and running around on the yellow boats, and if the unlicensed spectra got knocked off then there would be a lot of boaties out there that we simply would not have any way of contacting. Mobile phones only work so far offshore, and unreliably at that. We thought it was fantastic that the ACA removed the licensing conditions for Marine UHF. More boaties bought radios - we didn't really mind that they had no idea of the protocols involved as listening to the chatter teaches you how the talk works. It made things safer.
RFB uses unlicensed amateur as well as licensed spectra. I live in the bush now (no more yellow boats, *sigh*) and the RFB would get burnt alive without their radio comms gear. And I and lot of others around here would probably lose our farms.
I know a lot of other organisations used licensed spectra to control their vehicle fleets. Right down to humble carpet cleaners and people like that. I wonder how they'd feel if they had to use money on the phone to talk to their drivers (and the expense of having their drivers either risk points and fines or pulling over to talk to base)? Hey, we even use VHF, UHF and HF to talk to the tractors out here (they can be a looong way away;-).
No, you're not OT, Jabiru.
I would love to have BPL.
But I'd rather not have my farm burnt out because of it.
Safety first.
Sean
Welll, I hardly know where to start ! The appalling ignorance displayed by some responding to this thread is amazing. They seem to think that sacrificing the whole HF spectrum is worth it to cater for someone to download music or porn and get a few emails.
However, it has not been confirmed that an actual request has been made to ACA along the suggested lines. That may take a little time to confirm. It may even require a Freedom of Information request.
I find it hard to believe that ACA would be so stupid as to adopt such an attitude to a technically adept group of people when the PLC system is so susceptible to interference.
In the US several systems have closed and two of them have acknowledged interference issues as major reasons for their closure.
Incidently, you won't get 10Mbit/sec out of the system. You will be dead lucky to get 2 Mbit if what is the norm in the US is anything to go by.
It is not just a matter of the rights of 15,000 radio amateurs. It is the principle of the thing. It is plain just stupid, bad engineering practice.
I don't know how many of the people contributing here are aware of the way in which engineering standards are devised in this world. There are committees which draw up regulations covering the design of all sorts of equipment. They set standards for spurious radiation from all devices. They are largely world wide in their application.
For a major country to abandon these standards, which it is rumoured ACA is being asked to do, is to undermine the whole world wide standards regime !
You think this is an exageration ? Well it is not !
Why should manufacturers go to the trouble and expense of reducing interference from all sorts of devices if ACA is going to let the PLC people run all over them and radiate whatever they like. Take this to its conclusion and your wife will not be able to watch the TV while your computer is switched on.
Then you have minority rights, just because you want to go into some chat room via a broadband connection should not mean that I cannot talk to my friends using a different system. Why the hell should I put up with that ?
Who the hell do you think you are ?
Selfish of amateur radio operators !!!
Talk of the pot calling the kettle black !
World wide there are millions of us. Why should the few who will be using BPLC put
us off the air.
You can get your internet connection and do what you like. Its not right for you to shove us aside to satisfy your wants.
BPLC will not be going where ADSL can't go. It works in areas such as urban
areas of towns and cities. It is not economical in rural areas for the same reason ADSL has not been economical in rural areas.
Anyway didn't Telstra recently announce that they will be removing the distance from the exchange restriction. I presume they will be using repeaters of some sort.
The problem with BPLC is that they have started to realise that the system is uneconomic unless they can get the rules changed. They are attempting this in Europe as well as the US. They have convinced the untechnical people in the European Commission to bypass the regulations of the CISPR committee and the various other committees involved. They have caused an international log jam in all these negotiations. There can be little doubt that the weight of money is starting to be felt in this field. The current investors need to get a return in the short term so that they can get out without major losses.
Why do they want the rules changed ? Because they cannot get enough range without having to use multiple repeaters along the line. Their maximium number of customers per transmitter is too low if they have to obey the rules.
Why can't they get the range ? Because their signals get radiated from the power line before it goes far enough to be economical. Their solution is a brute force answer; Just pump up the power level and the rest be damned.
Don't jump into a technical argument unless you have the knowledge to know what you are talking about.
Jeeves writes...
It doesn't need radio frequencies. Its because BPL/PLC is distributed unshielded that it produces so much interference it kills certain frequencies.
It does use radio frequencies. That is the problem. The power lines will be used as transmission lines for the rf. Especially at the higher frequencies the power lines will make rather effective antennas.
My understanding is that the frequency range goes from the bottom of hf up to the lower tv channels. If there are any bad joints in the system you are then looking at the generation of harmonics which will extend any interference problems even higher in frequency.
Ignoring amateur radio operators that still leaves quite a lot of users.
ses
rfds
just people travelling and rely on hf to keep in contact
airlines
all the shortwave radio stations
The following is from using the search facilities on the aca web site. Searching just between 4MHz and 5MHz (just as an example) comes up with
dept of defence
aca
police
parks and wild life
coast guard
many companies
state emergency services
bureau of meteorology
dept of transport
plus others, I got sick of looking at the 36 pages of results just on this small frequency range
Signals in this frequency range can travel > 1,000km at night. Move up in frequency the signals can travel that far night time or day.
Searching other frequency ranges will yield many more users. Amateur radio operators are not the only users of the air waves.
Hello Ringer; It won't affect UHF or VHF users. It operates in the range 2 Mhz to 80 Mhz. From your posting it sounds like you are in a rural area. You won't see BPLC in your area. It is simply not suitable for rural areas. The distance between customers is too great. The maximium range with current signal levels is about 300 metres depending on the nature of the power line and what is hanging off it.
Then they have to use a repeater.
They put the signal on all three phases in parallel. It will not work in rural areas anyway so those on single wire feed and earth return will not be involved.
For you. BPL is a no brainer.