Is it a good idea to do so? Why/why not? I definitely want to do Civil Engineering at UNSW. After university I would like to be a civil engineer, probably working as either a consultant or in a structural engineering company sector, and/or eventually maybe a project manager of some sort.
I have seen other threads, actually. I see the advantages of me doing Comm/Eng like this;
Advantages
-there's commerce to fall back on if I don't like Eng (though I think this is unlikely to happen considering that science has been the only academic field I like in my entire life)
-engineering employers may look positively on the fact that I have done comm
-commercial knowledge doesn't hurt, might help with all careers, it's a very versatile double degree
Disadvantages
-I'm not good at and don't like writing heaps of essays (I'm more of a maths/science person); I've heard that you do that a lot in comm
-Commerce doesn't excite me, I pretty much never look at the financial sections of newspapers, I did eco in high school, didn't do well at the essays and got bored of it so I dropped it
-there's less focus on engineering, since I would have to cut out subjects
-takes longer
-costs more
-though I've said that "engineering employers may look positively" on it, I've also heard from other sources that it doesn't matter
So I have a dilemma here, mainly from the fact that commerce sounds good to do, but my interest for it isn't anywhere as strong as for engineering.
-there's commerce to fall back on if I don't like Eng
Agree. However much I dislike engineering, I don't think I would've enjoyed commerce related career though.
-engineering employers may look positively on the fact that I have done comm
Having been in field for ~4 years, I'm sorry but I don't think engineering employers care much about commerce part of your double degree. The big firms hire people specfically to be engineers or accountant / finance managers. Majority (if not all) of my friends who did double degree now have useless commerce part of their degree... not to mention they took extra semester or a year to do double.
-commercial knowledge doesn't hurt, might help with all careers, it's a very versatile double degree
Yes... doesn't hurt but won't really affect your employability at decent sized engineering firm by significant margin.
The only reason I kick myself in the balls for not having done comm with engineering is that the girls are plenty and pretty :P :P :P :P
Wouldn't a commerce degree help in engineering management though
I think getting out into the force and doing an extra year of work will teach you all the management you need.
So I have a dilemma here, mainly from the fact that commerce sounds good to do, but my interest for it isn't anywhere as strong as for engineering.
If you want a double degree, why not consider doing engineering/science?
From what you've written, this sounds more like what you are interested in.
-I'm not good at and don't like writing heaps of essays (I'm more of a maths/science person); I've heard that you do that a lot in comm
You might like finance, but stay the hell away from management. Or at least look very carefully at the assessment method before enrolling in the unit (good practice no matter what).
I think getting out into the force and doing an extra year of work will teach you all the management you need.
What would you think of doing a straight Eng degree then do a part-time MBA during the graduate job?
If you want a double degree, why not consider doing engineering/science? From what you've written, this sounds more like what you are interested in.
I know I said I'm more of a math/science person, but I don't want to combine Eng with something that won't help an Engineering career. If I'm going to pursue my non-career-helping-interests, I'll do it in my spare time rather than spend extra years at uni and pay its fees.
You might like finance, but stay the hell away from management. Or at least look very carefully at the assessment method before enrolling in the unit (good practice no matter what).
What's likable about finance and what's wrong with management?
idlethought writes...
What's likable about finance and what's wrong with management?
If you're not a fan of essays as you say, then you should avoid majors like Management, and stick to the quantitative stuff, like Finance or Actuarial.
Sounds like a silly question, but if I don't like doing consumer arithmetic in high school maths, does that mean I won't like Finance/Actuarial? If I found high school Economics boring/uninteresting, does that mean Commerce isn't for me?
Hi, I'm currently studying B Comm/B Eng (Civil) at UNSW and will complete my 4th year at the end of this semester. So I thought I should probably add to the discussion.
I graduated high school with a UAI of 92.20 but having completed the UNSW Faculty of Engineering Admission Scheme (FEAS) during year 12 I was offered a place in the combined degree (cut-off around 94 for my year). It was my first preference so I was happy to accept it. I had it listed as my first preference for the following reasons:
- I've always enjoyed maths and science having done Ext 1 + Adv maths in high school and also Physics. I enjoyed the content of the Physics HSC Syllabus but surprisingly didn't do well enough for it to count towards my UAI. I got 46/50 for Ext 1 maths and 92/100 for Advanced. The maths they throw at you in the first 2 years of engineering will really test you if you didnt do (or didnt do well in) extension maths. I found it challenging but not overly.
- The combination of Civil Engineering and Commerce appealed to me. Having said that, I did (and still do) get a few "why would you do those two subject together?" I like the creative side of engineering and the problem solving skills it encourages and also the sense of discipline with money and calculations you will develop in a commerce degree. I have friends in both faculties doing single degrees which does help, but they by no means 'overlap'. Having been at UNSW for 4 years I know only a handful of students completing the Comm/Eng with me.
- I always intended on getting out into the Engineering workforce straight from uni. Commerce was to enrich my resume, stand out from other graduates, and also provide fundamental economic understanding if I choose to move into management down the track. I still have this mindset, however, the commerce degree is more of an investment for use further down the track. I would love to be graduating this semester (with most of my friends) and getting some full time work experience under my belt, however I have another 1.5 years of study to go. If you get halfway through two degrees, you really can't (well should'nt) drop one to finished the other. It's a waste of time and money.
The length of the B Comm/B Eng degree at UNSW is 5.5 years. If you were to do the two degree separately you would be looking at 4 years (eng) + 3 years (comm) = 7 years. This shows that but choosing to do them together you are eliminately 1.5 years of study. I initially questioned what "depth" of study am I sacrificing but my contact with the university lecturers assured me that I would not be 'disadvantaged'. For example, as part of a single degree you are required to choose subjects from different faculties (other then your area of study) as part of a required 'general education' component of your degree. The combined degree eliminates this necessity, so you are effectively eliminating something that didn't really matter to your area of study. Also, as expected, the degree of difficulty with mathematics taught in the engineering degree is higher than that of commerce. As a results, some maths components from the commerce degree are eliminated (QMA and QMB). Not vital to your degree.
As this combination of degrees isn't very common, you will notice the university doesn't specifically outline a course 'plan' to follow. The UNSW Handbook can be used to some extent but having spoken with the appropriate people at uni they've informed me to "choose what I like when I like". As in, I have the flexibility to do all 4 subjects from my engineering degree one semester, then do 2 from each degree the next semester. Whilst this can be a refreshing way of learning and keeping subjects fresh, you will need to pay specific attention to planning the prerequisites before attempting follow-on courses. For example, some subjects may be only offered in semester one but are required for semester two subjects as prerequisites. If you choose to ignore it this semester you may be setting yourself back a year. I hope that makes sense.
Advantages
-there's commerce to fall back on if I don't like Eng (though I think this is unlikely to happen considering that science has been the only academic field I like in my entire life)
The first year of your combined degree will be 100% Engineering (Flexible First year – meaning it's common to all engineers and you will choose to go down the civil path later). The subjects will be Engineering Design, Computing for Engineers, Mathematics 1A, Physics 1A, Engineering Mechanics, Mathematics 1B, Engineering Materials and Chemicals or similar. I'm saying this because one year into your degree you will have made zero progress with Commerce and dropping the Engineering component won't be a good idea.
-engineering employers may look positively on the fact that I have done comm
Agreed, but I'm yet to test that theory :)
-commercial knowledge doesn't hurt, might help with all careers, it's a very versatile double degree
Commerce subjects include Macroeconomics, Microeconomics, Accounting 1A and 1B in the first year. These subjects are very broad but definitely useful in daily life. If you don't read newpapers or care about interest rates, you soon will. I did economics in year 12 and found it to be very helpful for these subjects. It is not a requirement but will make the economic concepts very simple to keep up with.
Disadvantages
-I'm not good at and don't like writing heaps of essays (I'm more of a maths/science person); I've heard that you do that a lot in comm
I have written a few essays, but not nearly as many as I had to in year 12 english. You will not struggle with these, they'll just be unenjoyable. I dislike the tutorial participation component of the commerce degree where they require homework checks, class involvement, group presentation of questions, etc.
-Commerce doesn't excite me, I pretty much never look at the financial sections of newspapers, I did eco in high school, didn't do well at the essays and got bored of it so I dropped it
It sounds as if you haven't yet convinced yourself it will be worthwhile. If you do not think a degree if worthwhile you will dislike every single day of uni. If you really can't justify the commerce degree, don't do it, as it may jeopardise you motivation to complete engineering.
-there's less focus on engineering, since I would have to cut out subjects
Covered above, the sacrifices are minimal.
-takes longer
-costs more
Isn't that what a degree is all about? :)
-though I've said that "engineering employers may look positively" on it, I've also heard from other sources that it doesn't matter
Possibly, but it definitely won't harm your resume. The extent to which it will increase your chance of a job will vary between employers. For an extra year and a half now, you can bag a second degree that will help down the track (whether job specific or just in general). If you don't see yourself coming back to uni at a later date, get it done now.
I am still over a year off graduating and am by no means an expert when it comes to specific course selection or enrolment. If I'm wrong about any specifics or any processes have changed in the past 4 years then someone correct me. I just thought I'd add my thoughts.
Sounds like a silly question, but if I don't like doing consumer arithmetic in high school maths, does that mean I won't like Finance/Actuarial?
if you think working 9-5 at a desk, poring over numbers is awesome then actuarial studies is for you.
having said that, the combination can take you into the lucrative banking, ib field -again be prepared to work longer than 9-5 and be under pressure every second of it.
If I found high school Economics boring/uninteresting, does that mean Commerce isn't for me?
keep in mind commerce is an umbrella term for a bunch of courses at uni. it can include management, finance, accounting, economics etc.
Commerce subjects include Macroeconomics, Microeconomics, Accounting 1A and 1B in the first year. These subjects are very broad but definitely useful in daily life. If you don't read newpapers or care about interest rates, you soon will.
Hey, thanks for your replies nellyei, you rock. Why would I start reading newspapers/caring about interest rates if I do commerce? Is it essential to do the said things to do well in the degree?
It sounds as if you haven't yet convinced yourself it will be worthwhile. If you do not think a degree if worthwhile you will dislike every single day of uni. If you really can't justify the commerce degree, don't do it, as it may jeopardise you motivation to complete engineering.
I know. But commerce does sound like a good degree so I keep considering it. But then my interest isn't very strong so I keep questioning it too.
Would I be able to drop commerce if I didn't like it, and just do straight eng? Or would there be problems to that e.g. still have to pay commerce fees (or something)?
-takes longer
-costs more
Isn't that what a degree is all about? :)
But you can get into the industry earlier with a single degree.
having said that, the combination can take you into the lucrative banking, ib field -again be prepared to work longer than 9-5 and be under pressure every second of it.
I'm more looking to an engineering career though, not working in bank/finance. I'm just thinking (and asking) "is it worth doing commerce with eng"
having said that, the combination can take you into the lucrative banking, ib field -again be prepared to work longer than 9-5 and be under pressure every second of it.
Very true, also a lot of economics professors have an engineering background. They use statistics to model economic variables – if you read economics papers, they have a hypothesis and then they use most of the paper to prove it using math. So there is a synergy there.
Commerce goes with everything and it's not much effort compared to Engineering. In fact it might cushion out the harder courses. E.g. people do law/comm partly for this reason.
Accounting/finance is straight calculation – no idea why everyone has a whinge abt intls not being able to speak fluent English, you don't need to be that literate to do accounting/finance although I think there is minimal essay writing for accounting theory.
Although you might not use it directly a commercial education is definitely beneficial if you are planning to work in the private sector, regardless of industry. It's kind of like arts – you probably won't have to produce a paper on feminist theory in the workplace but you'll know how to write a good report in terms of structure, persuasiveness, using the skills you learnt while writing said essay.
Why would I start reading newspapers/caring about interest rates if I do commerce? Is it essential to do the said things to do well in the degree?
I found it easier listening to a lecturer that has a full understanding of their field, as opposed to a high school teacher with a textbook. Simply put, they make things sound interesting. Their lectures are engaging. If you gain a better understand of a concept, it will come to mind when you hear it mentioned on the news or in the paper. Before studying commerce, hearing about the budget or interest rates felt like economics homework.
I know. But commerce does sound like a good degree so I keep considering it. But then my interest isn't very strong so I keep questioning it too.
There are some subjects which are very dry and feel like the weeks are going very slow, other subjects are logical and efficient. If you KNOW it will be beneficial for you in the future, you will finish it. Sure you may 'want' to drop it at times, but if you know what's best for you, once you start it, you'll finish it.
Would I be able to drop commerce if I didn't like it, and just do straight eng? Or would there be problems to that e.g. still have to pay commerce fees (or something)?
Sure you can. Before each semester you choose and enrol in 4 courses (you can do more but 4 is recommended), and then commence them in week 1. You then have a number of weeks (i think around 4 from memory) to drop a course without academic penalty (ie a fail) or without financial penalty (ie cost of that particular course). So you can start 4 subjects, then realise your workload is too heavy and drop one without the bad grades or fees, but dont forget its 6 units you'll have to catch up on. If you decide you hate commerce after finishing say 5 or 6 commerce subjects, you only pay for those subjects. As far as I'm aware you can return a few years later and pick up where you left off.
But you can get into the industry earlier with a single degree.
Yes. Like I said, straight out of uni, I think a graduate with a B Comm/B Eng degree and NO experience is worth less money then someone with a single degree and 2 years experience (roughly equivalent amount of time). But again it's all relative to the employer and the person they want for the job.
The way I see it is, the reason you are going to uni is to further your education and open employment opportunities at higher levels. Another year or two studying now may push you above 'the other guy' for that job promotion down the track. Your education is not a risky venture, nor is it something you will ever regret...you may however regret passing up the opportunity NOT to take that double degree opportunity once it's too late.
Speaking as current a B. Eng / B. Comm (Finance) student at UNSW, I wouldn't really recommend it. Do your 4 years, get into the workforce and get your employer to pay for you to do an MBA part time if that's the direction you want to take. Especially seeing as you don't seem particularly interested in it now.
If you do go with the double, I'd recommend majoring in Finance (the most popular), or Economics. Wouldn't bother with management or anything else really. My 3rd year planning subject has touched on concepts I've learnt in finance, and it's nice to have a bit of a leg up over straight Mining Eng students, but definitely not worth the extra 1.5 years in itself.
I would also suggest overloading in 1st and 2nd year if you go down this route to finish a semester early. Do it while the subjects are easy and not worth as much (Eng subjects are weighted more heavily as the years progress for honours calculation) and you can finish in 5 years.
Some employers may appreciate the double degree, more so in consulting IMO (I've had the MD of one consultancy comment favourably about it – noone else has ever mentioned it or seemed to care). Civil may be different to mining in this regard.
Of course, you can always drop the commerce if you don't want to finish it. I believe you have a 2 subject buffer as well – you need to do 12UOC of gen eds if you do the straight Civil degree so 2 of your commerce subjects will count towards this even if you drop.
The only reason I kick myself in the balls for not having done comm with engineering is that the girls are plenty and pretty :P :P :P :P
Beg to differ! Engineering/arts is what you want if that's what floats your boat ;)
I wouldn't really recommend it
I totally agree, in conjunction with the OP's sentiment. It's good to plan early, but IMO the undergrad commerce degree is a joke. (I'm majoring in finance, it maybe different for other commerce majors – but my inclination is to doubt that it is) It is one of the most expensive degrees besides law and possibly medicine (not sure).
Why would I start reading newspapers/caring about interest rates if I do commerce? Is it essential to do the said things to do well in the degree?
Nope it isn't essential to do well, I don't ever read the newspaper, and don't really care about the interest rates either but that will probably change when I start working.
In general I would say that the commerce degree does offer some sort of skills and knowledge but it is considerably watered down. It is not worth your time and money. The only benefit i can see it having for you is the perception of "having a commerce degree". Other than that there is very little intrinsic value IMO.
it's nice to have a bit of a leg up over straight Mining Eng students
Don't know what makes you think you have a "leg up" on them. Everyone I have spoken to in mining eng (and that includes many mine managers and a Chief Operating Officer), say they don't give a stuff about whatever double someone has taken with mining eng. To them the mining eng degree and work experience is all they care about.
If you read the whole sentence I was referring to one subject in particular, Mine Planning, and only a very small section of it. If your son is in 3rd year at the moment he would be completing it now. It covers some basic accounting/finance principles. As I said, it's the only crossover I've experienced in terms of coursework. So not worth it in terms of crossover knowledge, or in terms of making yourself more employable. Although it may be different in civil, I don't know.
To be honest I'm considering dropping so I can finish a year earlier, except the 2 extra eng subjects I'd have to complete are both run in S1 so I don't think I can fit them in while doing 4th year. So OP if you do go down the double route (which by this thread doesn't seem highly recommended), plan your degree so you still have an out if it comes down to it.
Is it a good idea to do so? Why/why not? I definitely want to do Civil Engineering at UNSW. After university I would like to be a civil engineer, probably working as either a consultant or in a structural engineering company sector, and/or eventually maybe a project manager of some sort.
I know someone who did EXACTLY THAT minus the civil engineering, but everything else is on target lol.
+ Engineering is in demand now.
Why not do engineering/science? Your interests seem to match this degree well. I have similar interests, except I have specific interests in engineering and science, and I'll be studying engineering/science.
You really shouldn't do something you don't enjoy. I can see how school students just don't understand this because I also refused to believe this 4 years ago. Here I am 4 years later with a degree and no job because my marks were horrible. Back then I was too interested in prestige, money and job prospects. I'm going back to uni to do what I really love- even if it doesn't get me a job I won't regret it.
The one problem I see though is that you're interested in civil engineering. It doesn't really go well with any particular science majors (correct me if I'm wrong). A lot of the people who do eng/sci do it becasue they're studying chem eng (can do chemistry major) or elec eng (computer science major). Maybe for mech eng, physics could be a useful major but I can't see how any major would be uselul for civil engineering. Mind you I don't know much about the field but my perception is that civil engineers are generally like project managers at work so management knowledge would be more useful than more science.
Better still- do a single degree!
my perception is that civil engineers are generally like project managers at work so management knowledge would be more useful than more science.
This is true, I do civil engineering and this is what I've been hearing from my lecturers, tutors, friends etc. The early years of a civil engineering career is primarily focused around technical stuff, from then on there's a lot of management, people interaction involved etc
If you read the whole sentence I was referring to one subject in particular
You're right, I was distracted when I made my comment and didn't process the whole sentence.
plan your degree so you still have an out if it comes down to it.
Yep, it's a bit late when 4 years down the track (while watching your friends graduate and head off into the workforce) you realise it isn't worth the effort and want to graduate sooner. Not only have you racked up extra debt and lost a year of full-time work, you also can miss out on vac work placements due to not being a penultimate year student. This is particularly the case where the employer is looking at their vac worker to fill a grad program spot the following year.
Fortunately the son I have that started a double eng degree, got out of the second degree at the end of his first semester before he had taken any of the elective subjects for his second degree. His second degree was Science though and it wasn't until he was in the system that he realise just how restricted he would be in majors for the Science degree.