Hey guys!
Just a question... I'm on a relatively old Optus internet plan where I pay something around $50/month (although combined with Optus home phone) and get 7/14 gigs per month (slowed down after 7 gigs at day is exceeded). And I was looking at the deals they have at Optus now... I'm a bit of a technology illiterate and don't understand all the points but, is it just me or are the deals MORE expensive now?? How come??

Babak writes...

I'm on a relatively old Optus internet plan where I pay something around $50/month (although combined with Optus home phone) and get 7/14 gigs per month (slowed down after 7 gigs at day is exceeded).

That sounds like the Advantage plan – $49.95/month if you have an Optus phone, but it doesn't include the cost of the phone service.

It all depends on your needs really. The MyHome Freedom 15GB plan at $59.99/month is a differently tuned plan. It would not make any sense to Advantage users who use a lot of their off-peak, but it could make a lot of sense for people who mainly use their Peak allowance and then get shaped after 7GB. On a 24 month contract, the Freedom plan includes 4 free months, so on average it actually works out at $49.99/month or virtually the same price as Advantage.

Keep in mind that Optus has a large userbase and not only this, they can see exactly how people tend to use the service, even how people on different plans tend to use their service. That would give them a lot of knowledge with which to target their plan offerings for the mass market.

But for individuals, the end result is that their respective value will depend entirely on how you use your service. What's good for the mass market may not be good for you at all and yes, could be worse, based on your circumstances.

It looks like they're ONLY offering ADSL2+ to new customers now, so you're probably on ADSL1, yet the prices your are seeing are for the faster connection.

We might be on the same plan – I'm on the 7/14 1500 plan, which wasn't offered for very long, and was equal or cheaper than the ADSL1 equivalent plans that were before and after it.

I hate the steps in the current Optus plans. 2GB is too little for me, 15 is way too much, and they don't offer anything in between. They're obviously exploiting the 'need' for data. Many people wouldn't even think about a 2GB plan, so are forced into something too large.

I suppose though, the good thing about Optus is that on the 30GB & 15GB plans they shape to 128kbps instead of 64kbps. Not many other ISPs do this, and 128kbps is still a perfectly usable speed for basic browsing.

Personally, and I know some here make take issue, the value of Optus has gone down. Yes, its different strokes for different folks and for a lot of customers Optus and Telstra have struck the right chord.

I dont know for sure but I suspect most people just surf, watch some vids, do other light stuff etc on the net and Optus or BP suit them. Then there are the downloaders (not always illegal) for whom 20 is entree size. Optus wont suit them so they internode or whoever.

Personally I doubt Optus will change, cable for example is a virtual oligopoly and ADSL, well most consumers really only know about Optus and BP. They might see the smaller providers as fly by nighters and keep clear.

There is certainly a heap of ADSL2 competition out there and this doesn't seem to have impacted on Optus or BP. That must tell us something.

vespa writes...

I dont know for sure but I suspect most people just surf, watch some vids, do other light stuff etc on the net and Optus or BP suit them. Then there are the downloaders (not always illegal) for whom 20 is entree size.

More and more unfortunately... unfortunately, that is, for those that used to be subsidised by the lighter internet users.

Gone are the days where the users that never used all of their quota within the month would subsidise those that would. All ISPs, not just Optus and BP, are seeing the same thing, and are adjusting their access pricing accordingly.

That must tell us something.

That more people are using the internet? ...and using exponentially more data?

Babak writes...

I'm a bit of a technology illiterate and don't understand all the points but, is it just me or are the deals MORE expensive now?? How come??

I believe it has little to do with technology, but a lot to do with market conditions, consumer behaviour, and profitability. Pricing is a business decision, and one may get an awful headache trying to force-fit it into a discussion about the providers' capabilities.

yes, the new plans are not as advantageous as the old ones, because Optus has seen two emerging trends/threats and acted to save profits. The growth of VOIP and the use of torrenting & home servers which suck up outgoing data.

So Optus' new bundle plans include free calls so you won't VOIP them out of normal call fees (when you go over, and calls to mobiles) and also count uploads as data.
Of course that suits some customers (eg the ppl that don't have a clue about VOIP or torrenting), but I doubt it's a majority, particularly as time goes on and ppl get more internet savvy.
However the old plans have only been grandfathered, not cancelled, so you can still upgrade between as you are an existing plan (in that family) holder.

imorf writes...

yes, the new plans are not as advantageous as the old ones

Maybe not to you, but to many people they are.

So Optus' new bundle plans include free calls so you won't VOIP them out of normal call fees (when you go over, and calls to mobiles)

It's a bit hard to go over unlimited. You try to paint it as evil, but it makes perfect sense. Optus has a mature yet developing voice network, something they have very cleverly leveraged with the Fusion plans. It's a great proposition and you won't be able to convince anyone that the overwhelming vast majority of people would rather use a normal phone than VoIP if price wasn't an issue.

Let's face it, Fusion openly exploits Optus' position in the market as a provider that has the scope to do fixed and broadband, but also doesn't mind doing something that's going to (and did) leave Telstra having to make some tough decisions about their own plans. It clearly worked... Optus went around saying it went better than they expected and here in Whirlpool we've seen reports of completely unprecedented attempts by Telstra to target people who switched from them to Optus and drag them back to Telstra with a deal unlike anything they'd offered previously.

Of course that suits some customers (eg the ppl that don't have a clue about VOIP or torrenting), but I doubt it's a majority, particularly as time goes on and ppl get more internet savvy.

I think that's just more Whirlpool tunnel vision. There was a time when WP was the barometer of the Australian broadband community, but it certainly isn't any more now that Internet usage has balooned and the sorts of gurus and power users that dominate Whirlpool return to our more regular digs of being a small minority in the scheme of things.

As has been said earlier in this thread – the days of light users subsidising heavy users are over.

imorf writes...
yes, the new plans are not as advantageous as the old ones

TicTacToe writes...

Maybe not to you, but to many people they are.

As I pointed out earlier:
"I'm on Advantage with the phone on the Anytime Cap, and I pay $100/month, so let's say it's "charging the same for less*." Still a terrible trend...
*maximum theoretical cable speed being the only advancement Fusion has brought."

(For those who don't know, that's 7+14GB (@10Mbps, cable), no upload counting, no excess charges and $300 worth of all calls except for international.)

we've seen reports of completely unprecedented attempts by Telstra to target people who switched from them to Optus and drag them back to Telstra with a deal unlike anything they'd offered previously.
Optus and Telstra fighting over customers is
a) nothing new, and
b) not at all an indication of progress.

Gary Gygax writes...

b) not at all an indication of progress.

It's is an indication of a levelling of services, where the people that use more aren't subsidised by the people that don't. In that regard it becomes 'the progression of fairness'

Jack.Daniels writes...

It's is an indication of a levelling of services, where the people that use more aren't subsidised by the people that don't. In that regard it becomes 'the progression of fairness'

Woohoo.
As if Optus or Telstra (or for that matter any business) care about fairness!
It/they saw they could extract more (or the same) dollars from customers while offering less, therefore maximising profit – fairness doesn't come into it.

Gary Gygax writes...

maximising profit

You seem angry about this... Isn't this the whole point of business?

Brad@OptusNet writes...

You seem angry about this... Isn't this the whole point of business?
It's by far the main point, but it should not be the only point.
Fairness should be a consideration, but in reality it just isn't – especially with respect to multi-nationals.

Thanks for the replies. And yes it's the $50 yes Advantage and is combined with the home phone (but the $50 doesn't cover the home phone cost).

Gary Gygax writes...

Fairness should be a consideration

Fairness, as in 'making people pay for what they use' should be a consideration... oh, hold on... that's what I already said.

Jack.Daniels writes...

Fairness, as in 'making people pay for what they use'
No, fairness as in 'not ripping anyone off.'

'Your fairness' is a business decision, 'my fairness' is a moral one.

Gary Gygax writes...

'Your fairness' is a business decision, 'my fairness' is a moral one.

Nicely said.

The problem is driven by the incessant search for greater profits and bigger resulting management bonuses.

If Joe Sixpack and his lack of technical understanding can be exploited for extra profit then it is a usually an imperative to do so.

The bigger the business the less the issue of morality in respect of customers rears it shy little head.

Some good public education on these topics is the way to go. Educated consumers are a potent force for reform, and a nightmare for those who would profit unfairly.

Therefore I am writes...

If Joe Sixpack and his lack of technical understanding can be exploited for extra profit then it is a usually an imperative to do so.

This becomes a question of business ethics as well.

Gary Gygax writes...

No, fairness as in 'not ripping anyone off.'

I have an issue re fairness with OPtus. I have Optus phone on HFC, yet when I connected, it was never, repeat never explained to me that I could not easily change ISP and without significant cost and losing my phone number.

Some will say I needed to read the T&C's, but if you arent tech savvy, HFC and ULL mean not a damn thing. A phone is a phone.

Sure I can change ISP, but a $300 cost and lose of number which I have had for 15 years. Bloody inconvenient. Maybe had the lovely people at Optus explain this to me from the off, well, I would not have signed up.

I love how some people around here simply cannot accept that the current plans, particularly Fusion are actually good value for many, who sign up for them.

vespa writes...

This becomes a question of business ethics as well.

Business ethics?

Give me a break – if you don't see or understand the value in the plans on offer, then don't sign up for them. Fusion is for people who use their phone a lot. If that's not you, then it's not for you, but you're not in the majority either. There are a heck of a lot of people who are a lot better off under Fusion.

The most interesting part about the Fusion plans is how many WP users are on them... they certainly aren't the exclusive domain of non-WP types.

TicTacToe writes...

if you don't see or understand the value in the plans on offer, then don't sign up for them.

Exactly. There are literally tons of different plans from numerous different isp's. You are welcome to shop around to find something that suit you. Besides, those who were on the old plans can still keep them if they find that these plans are of better value than the new ones. If your needs have changed, then, please, by all means, have a look at what else is out there too to find something that is good value for you. The new plans suit a lot of people, but not everyone.

TicTacToe writes...

Business ethics?

Give me a break

Did you read the post I replied to ?

Is there a problem with business ethics ?

The seller doesnt have a responsibility to explain their product to the customer especially in this area ?

You're lucky that you might know all the tech jargon, not all of us do. Some of us can be therefore misled ? This is good business practice ?
Some of us rely on the honesty of the seller, and it really isnt a lot to expect that they behave in an ethical manner.

TicTacToe writes...

I love how some people around here simply cannot accept that the current plans, particularly Fusion are actually good value for many, who sign up for them.
How do you feel about the people who ignore the fact that the current plans are worse value than the previous ones?

AFN writes...

Sure I can change ISP, but a $300 cost and lose of number which I have had for 15 years. Bloody inconvenient. Maybe had the lovely people at Optus explain this to me from the off, well, I would not have signed up.

What an absolute crock of shit you speak of. Do Telstra tell customers that they can only use their Next G handsets on their network only and if they ever change to another carrier that it will not work, I think not.

When I book a flight with QANTAS, do they tell me that I could fly cheaper with Virgin Blue? I could go on with examples but I won't.

I hope I can get my point across of the lack of intelligence evident in your statement.

AFN writes...

I have an issue re fairness with Optus. I have Optus phone on HFC, yet when I connected, it was never, repeat never explained to me that I could not easily change ISP and without significant cost and losing my phone number.

IMHO, it's hard to tell the difference between deceit and plain old incompetence/lack of processes.

Beer Pimp! writes...

What an absolute crock of shit you speak of

According to you.

The QANTAS/Virgin example has nothing to do with what I wrote. My point is that a phone line ia a phone line. Not knowing that the line is incompatible with any other and thereby limiting my choice down the track was something not known to me.

Fine, you want to rant great, that's you opinion, I dont happen to share it.

Beer Pimp! writes...

I hope I can get my point across of the lack of intelligence evident in your statement.

lol, the NextG and Qantas examples you gave are not the same thing at all.
I'd suggest a deep breath before questioning other people's intelligence.

Gary Gygax writes...

IMHO, it's hard to tell the difference between deceit and plain old incompetence/lack of processes.

And maybe that's what it was, just incompetence. Maybe I needed to be better informed and ask the right questions. Fine, I can accept that, I know I will be a lot wiser in the future.

Gary Gygax writes...

How do you feel about the people who ignore the fact that the current plans are worse value than the previous ones?

Only for some. For very many people, they are good value. The Fusion plans are particularly good value for people who use their phone a lot.

Anyone trying to insist these plans don't present good value for many people is very seriously out of touch.

There are 1 million other better plans. Eg. iiNet naked, GoTalk naked, any ADSL2+ and VoIP, etc. And if your saying these are better plans, why did Optus FORCE me on to one? You be the judge.

AFN writes...

Did you read the post I replied to ?

Well, firstly, the post of mine that you're replying to wasn't a reply to you. But yes, I've read all the posts in this thread.

Is there a problem with business ethics ?

I don't see one here.

The seller doesnt have a responsibility to explain their product to the customer especially in this area ?

Sellers have lots of repsonsibilities regarding explanation of the products they are selling – but there are also some things they can reasonably expect from you and you from them.

Sellers can reasonably assume that if you come to them and ask them about their products, then you intend to use their services. They don't have to start explaining about other offerings in the market place.

If you asked anything about your ability to use other broadband providers when on the Optus cable network – or even if you in any way showed that you were making any assumptions about this, then they would have an obligation to explain it to you – but otherwise, they don't.

You're annoyed because you got stuck and that's perfectly understandable, but you'd also be annoyed if they bamboozeld you with all sorts of details you didn't understand, so much so that it became hard to notice the important facts that would always be relevant.

TicTacToe writes...

If you asked anything about your ability to use other broadband providers when on the Optus cable network – or even if you in any way showed that you were making any assumptions about this, then they would have an obligation to explain it to you – but otherwise, they don't

Spot on. Maybe if anything I am annoyed that I didnt know enough about the whole setup. Now I am not on a contract with Optus, so I can move on. Once bitten, and next time I will be asking a lot more questions.

All I wanted to know about was the Optus service. I mean they tell me if I cancelled the contract early, I would be up for whatever cost. Could they not tell me that should I chhose to leave Optus I could incur a cost and loss of number to conect to the Telstra network.

Anyway, I am over it. I take some responsibility and I need to look ahead, not keep going over the same thing.

TicTacToe writes...

Only for some. For very many people, they are good value
So the old plans were better for 'only some'?
Let's take a look at new vs. old shall we?

For the phone, let's take the current 'yes' Fusion compared to the (still current) Home Anytime Cap.
This Cap plan is $49/month and includes $300 worth of calls – that's all calls except for international.
OK, Fusion includes 'unlimited' calls but calls to non-Optus mobiles are charged.
How many people would make >$300 worth of calls a months? Sure, there are some, but for the vast majority not having to pay anything for any calls (up to that $300 limit) represents much better value.

Now, to the broadband plans.
Fusion comes in 2GB, 7GB or 20GB plans, costing $79, $89, $99 per month, respectively (including phone, as above.)
Uploads are counted and $150/GB excess charges apply (capped at $300), after which throttling kicks in.

Alernatively, MyHome has 400MB, 2GB, 15GB and 30GB options for $25, $40, $60, $100 per month.
That doesn't include phone, so adding on the Cap plan above makes the monthly spend $74, $89, $109 and $149, respectively.
MyHome has no excess charges, but uploads are still counted.

Let's compare those to the previous plans:
300+600MB (peak/off-peak), 2+4GB, 7+14GB, 20+40GB at $30, $40, $50 & $70 per month.
Uploads are not counted, nor are there any excess charges.

Some of the (higher-end) new plans do have a slightly faster throttle speed, and for cable the speed is 20Mbps instead of 10 for the old plans (but how many people on cable even get 10Mbps regularly, let alone 20?)

Adding on the Cap phone plan gives a total of $79, $89, $99 and $119 per month.

Then there is the $1.10/month paper invoice fee (for MyHome), and the 1% credit card surcharge (which now applies to everyone.) Both of these can be avoided (with possible added inconvenience for the customer), but this adds to the general 'pay more, get less' trend. And let's not even get into the ever-increasing support wait times...

Bottom line: The previous plans ("the good old days") deliver(ed) better overall value across the board.

Why is Internet pricing getting more expensive ?

Telstra has a monopoly in this country because they control the two copper lines running from your house to the exchange.

From what I can gather myself, they (Telstra) charge other ISPs a fee to use Telstra's lines.

Telstra has organised city and country areas into zones e.g. gold, silver, bronze, pottery.

If you live in a pottery zone they charge other ISPs a higher amount to use lines in these areas compared to the other (areas) zones which of course get cheaper as you move from pottery, bronze, silver and finally the cheapest gold.

When Optus put your line rental up it was forced to because it was charged more for the lines between your house and the exchange.

Is Optus the demon that some people assume they are ?

I don't think so they are acting on what is beyond their control.

Telstra charge you the maximum amount that they can get away with, Telstra is no longer publicly owned the goverment sold it – its now privately owned.

My opinion of these Americans that run the company, they couldn't care less about so called "fairness", its about making as much money as possible.

And when I look at what some of these Americans do, its profit at any cost.

Look at what is happening with the nuclear waste problem, it would not surprise me in the least if they are actually forcing our polititians to take this extremely dangerous radioactive poison, this is the kind of mentality that we are dealing with, men that just don't care.

It would not surprise me if they just bribed or coerced polititians into getting a favourable outcome for themselves.

Most people in Australia are brain-washed by t.v, they watch the lovely pleasant advertising and are relatively easily tricked into deals that are less than what they thought they were.

I look at they way some corporations run their businesses and from what I can see it isn't a lot different from how thugs and criminals run their businesses.

Anyway this is how I see it.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Gary Gygax writes...

How many people would make >$300 worth of calls a months? Sure, there are some

Evidently, you would be surprised, but sure, the Home Anytime Cap plan is also great value for people who make a lot of calls. I've never said it wasn't.

Alernatively, MyHome has 400MB, 2GB, 15GB and 30GB options for $25, $40, $60, $100 per month.

That doesn't include phone, so adding on the Cap plan above makes the monthly spend $74, $89, $109 and $149, respectively.

You've ignored the 4 free broadband months available on the MyHome plans to people taking up 2 year contracts, which will be most people. Let's add that impact of that in then run it up:

$69.83 – Starter 400MB + Anytime Cap
$79.00 – 'yes' Fusion $79 (2GB)
$82.33 – Classic 2GB + Anytime Cap
$89.00 – 'yes' Fusion $89 (7GB)
$98.99 – Freedom 15GB + Anytime Cap
$99.00 – 'yes' Fusion $99 (20GB)
$132.33 – Professional 30GB + Anytime Cap

There's quite a logical progression in pricing there IMO and obviously what's best in each case comes down to individual circumstances, depending on the type and quantity of phone calls and the broadband needs of each user.

Let's compare those to the previous plans

Yes, let's.

$68.95 – Easy Start 100MB + 200MB + Anytime Cap
$69.83 – Starter 400MB + Anytime Cap
$78.95 – Light 300MB + 600MB + Anytime Cap
$79.00 – 'yes' Fusion $79 (2GB)
$82.33 – Classic 2GB + Anytime Cap
$88.95 – Sprint 2GB + 4GB + Anytime Cap
$89.00 – 'yes' Fusion $89 (7GB)
$98.95 – Advantage 7GB + 14GB + Anytime Cap
$98.99 – Freedom 15GB + Anytime Cap
$99.00 – 'yes' Fusion $99 (20GB)
$118.95 – Power 20GB + 40GB + Anytime Cap
$132.33 – Professional 30GB + Anytime Cap

Clearly Starter 400MB is better value than the old Easy Start, even including uploads as it does.

Clearly Classic 2GB is better value then the old Light at marginal extra cost, with 'yes' Fusion $79 an option for those who benefit more from its structure.

In the next category 'yes' Fusion $89 is a compelling choice over the old Sprint, but then here's where we start to encounter the real kicker – most normal users barely use off-peak data, so get questionable value out of it.

At the near-$100 price point – and this is where I would sit myself if I used the landline – there's an interesting selection here. Now yes, I'm still on Advantage but if for some reason I had to change off it, Freedom for me would only give me more flexibility at the same cost. Now obviously from my WP posting habits (including this one), I'm a bit of a night owl, so I don't even have to schedule big downloads, I can just do it manually, because I'm up. I'm also not exactly a light user. But this said – I rarely use 7GB total in a month, even if I add up my uploads as well.

So to be honest, I barely think about Off-peak now and I'd think about it even less on Freedom and would just feel free to use my allowance whenever. If you're a bandwidth hog and get your full 21GB down, then yeah, you'll be better on Advantage. But most people aren't... and in fact most people would benefit from the removal of the 7GB peak allowance with it changing into 15GB whenever... it's a LOT more flexible for the average user and even not-so-average users like myself.

Now clearly as I'm not a phone person Fusion makes no sense for me personally, but the Fusion plan at this price point does come in at 20GB.

Then, sure, at the upper end past the last Fusion plan you have the only real discrepancy of the lot. With the removal of the Power, there's no doubt about it – Optus does not want any new users who are going to sign up and ensure they suck their 60GB down each month. There is however the alternative proposition for the type of heavy user they still do want to retain.

There's no real point us arguing about these two. I can undertand why back-up-the-internet devotees cannot see or comprehend why some heavy users will prefer MyHome Professional and yes, it comes down to the sort of users who aren't off scheduling downloads in the off-peak hours to suck up all their allowance. For the type of users they are now focussing on – Professional is better value than Power.

Bottom line: The previous plans ("the good old days") deliver(ed) better overall value across the board.

Well that is demonstrably false, as I've just proven above.

The current plans are mostly the same or better value than the old ones, some are better value for most people... but yes, as has been pointed out many times in this thread – there is no longer a need for regular users to cross subsidise those who were scheduling downloads to pull down 60GB/month. That tiny market is no longer served by the new plans, no.

TicTacToe writes...

The current plans are mostly the same or better value than the old ones, some are better value for most people... but yes, as has been pointed out many times in this thread – there is no longer a need for regular users to cross subsidise those who were scheduling downloads to pull down 60GB/month. That tiny market is no longer served by the new plans, no.

Great post my man! Just a clarify on the last paragraph...
so... before, there were plans to get relatively cheap 60GB/month, and it was 'subsidised' by regular users. Now they've gotten rid of that so the 'minority' (as you say) who want 60GB/month have to pay more (i.e. Optus relieved the unfair pressure on regular users).

Did I understand it correctly?

(If so... that sucks =P I was hoping to get more GB's / month. But thanks for the great responses!)

Babak writes...

Now they've gotten rid of that so the 'minority' (as you say) who want 60GB/month have to pay more (i.e. Optus relieved the unfair pressure on regular users).

Did I understand it correctly?

Not quite.

Users who want 60GB/month cannot get it from Optus on the current plan structure at all. Yes, Optus has indeed walked away from servicing that minority. You could only surmise that this would have been for reasons along the lines of their overall network impact being disproportionate to the revenue they were generating, otherwise why would they throw those customers away?

The highest residential plan is now 30GB/month and the highest small business plan (which would require an ABN and would not be available on Cable) is 40GB/month.

TicTacToe writes...

You've ignored the 4 free broadband months available
Deliberately.
As you would know, there were/are all kinds of deals being offered at any given time, going back many years. It would be difficult/impossible to incorporate all those deals into all the different options. Your 'version' of the comparison is flawed because it's clearly biased towards the new plans.

Now clearly as I'm not a phone person
People not needing to use the phone much/at all are in an even worse position, because they would not want/need Fusion, rather MyHome plus a cheap phone plan. This can/could also be done with the old Internet plans. MyHome just can not compete with the old plans (the closest it gets is with Freedom) – this point alone shows clearly what I'm getting at.

The current plans are mostly the same or better value than the old ones, some are better value for most people
Given the above, the current plans are the same or worse value than the old ones, as I've already shown.
The new system of counting uploads, charging for excess usage, charging for paper bills, and charging credit card fees are irrefutably a downward/backwards trend.

Gary Gygax writes...

The new system of counting uploads, charging for excess usage,

You would think that on these two counts alone , the offers have gotten worse. In days gone by we would have hammered Telstra for $150 per gig over. Little did we expect Optus to go the same way.

Even the movement from Fusion original recipe to the new Fusion gives us a clear idea of how the offers have dropped in value.

Gary Gygax writes...

As you would know, there were/are all kinds of deals being offered at any given time, going back many years.

There have been few free month style offers with the Light/Sprint/Advantage/Power series. In fact, this series was an explicit move away from free month offers.

The four free months offer is fundamental to the current plans. Any special deals will be additional to this, so it's a fair comparison, there's no bias in it at all, because these too could be made more attractive with special offers on top of what they already offer.

People not needing to use the phone much/at all are in an even worse position, because they would not want/need Fusion, rather MyHome plus a cheap phone plan. This can/could also be done with the old Internet plans.

What more can I add to what you've already said yourself? This could be done witht the old plans, so there's no difference between new and old here. People who don't use the phone much can use the MyHome plans and combine with the cheapeast phone plan, just as they could on the older internet plans. Using the AnyTime cap was your idea – and it was a good suggestion, allowing us to compare the value of the plans and see that the new plans are indeed the same or better than the old ones.

But then yes, Fusion is for people who use their phone a lot. Don't use your phone a lot, choose MyHome with a cheaper phone plan. Easy... and no different to the older Internet-only plans.

MyHome just can not compete with the old plans (the closest it gets is with Freedom) – this point alone shows clearly what I'm getting at.

Sorry, you haven't justified this at all. I've already shown in detail how MyHome is the same or better than the old plans.

TicTacToe writes...

The four free months offer is fundamental to the current plans.
From the Myhome page: Offers end 12 July, 2008.

I've already shown in detail how MyHome is the same or better than the old plans.
If your claim above is correct (and I really don't see how it is), then yes, MyHome does become somewhat more attractive.

Gary Gygax writes...

From the Myhome page

All Optus plans have carried similar designations for a long time. I can only guess it's so they can have the option to change their plans without people saying "But you had it advertised". If they decide not to change, they extend the offer window.

This is why we often see "Are they going to relase new plans?" threads which eye of these dates, only to see the plans continue on most of the time. If you look in the Standard Pricing Tables at http://www.optus.com.au/sfoa it's made very clear that free months when contracting are a part of the 'yes' Rewards bundled offer for these plans.

If your claim above is correct (and I really don't see how it is), then yes, MyHome does become somewhat more attractive.

Well I think that's as close as the two of us are going to get with our different views, so I'm happy to leave it there.

All Optus plans have carried similar designations for a long time. I can only guess it's so they can have the option to change their plans without people saying "But you had it advertised". If they decide not to change, they extend the offer window.
Agreed.

If you look in the Standard Pricing Tables at http://www.optus.com.au/sfoa it's made very clear that free months when contracting are a part of the 'yes' Rewards bundled offer for these plans.
'yes' Rewards is the current special, which may or may not be extended next month, in the same way that other specials have come and gone.
I'm not sure why you are attributing it 'special' special status.

Gary Gygax writes...

'yes' Rewards is the current special, which may or may not be extended next month, in the same way that other specials have come and gone.

I'm not sure why you are attributing it 'special' special status.

Probably because 'yes' Rewards have been continuously offered since the time they were called "Choices" years and years ago, then you can trace it back further under that name. Additional promotions have always been offered on top of 'yes' Rewards.

In a similar vein, the last time the nature of the 'yes' Rewards changed when their associated plan did not change was back in 2004. That's when one of the main components of the 'yes' Rewards changed from being 50 or 100 free local calls to 3 or 4 months free per year.

There's years of history there behind what I'm saying. The comparison I posted is very valid... because the history that backs up my stance extends well beyond the relatively recent old plans we used in the comparison.

do people still use their home phones? – i would of thought most people have mobile caps with similar kind of conditions which negates any positivity about the Fusion plans

cows go moo writes...

do people still use their home phones? – i would of thought most people have mobile caps with similar kind of conditions which negates any positivity about the Fusion plans

exactly.
It'll be interesting to watch the take up figures of naked dsl over the next few years.

TicTacToe writes...

Now yes, I'm still on Advantage but if for some reason I had to change off it, Freedom for me would only give me more flexibility at the same cost.

You mean they'll throw in the four months free if you switch from Advantage to Freedom?

I can undertand why back-up-the-internet devotees cannot see or comprehend why some heavy users will prefer MyHome Professional and yes, it comes down to the sort of users who aren't off scheduling downloads in the off-peak hours to suck up all their allowance. For the type of users they are now focussing on – Professional is better value than Power.

My previous two billing periods were on Power (before that I was on Advantage). Looking at my usage, which was roughly the same for each of those two months, I downloaded 13GB peak and 6GB off-peak with 7GB uploads. That's hardly "back-up-the-internet" usage, but it's 11GB more than Freedom allows. If I switched to Professional, I'd be paying $30 extra and have much less room for extra downloads in a month (about 2.5GB remaining instead of the 7GB/34GB on Power).

So you don't have to be anywhere near a 60GB/month P2P addict for Professional to be much poorer value than Power. But for the lower plans, I'd agree with the argument that the claimed reduction in value vs the old plans is often false or exagerrated.

cows go moo writes...

do people still use their home phones?

Yes. Fixed telephony has only just started to go into decline – that is off a VERY large base!

twistynoodle writes...

You mean they'll throw in the four months free if you switch from Advantage to Freedom?

For an average saving of $10/month, I'd be prepared to agree to a new contract.

I downloaded 13GB peak and 6GB off-peak with 7GB uploads. That's hardly "back-up-the-internet" usage

It is an odd up/down ratio by regular usage standards... your uploads here are about 37% of your downloads, that's well outside a typical range, so clearly you would be much more impacted by the counting of uploads than an average user.

If I switched to Professional, I'd be paying $30 extra and have much less room for extra downloads in a month (about 2.5GB remaining instead of the 7GB/34GB on Power).

Well, of course. It's been said before – Optus ain't interested in signing up anyone who wants to schedule (or otherwise cause) downloads to suck out 40GB of Off-Peak data. See my earlier reply at /forum-replies.cfm?t=999248&r=15851550#r15851550

So you don't have to be anywhere near a 60GB/month P2P addict for Professional to be much poorer value than Power. But for the lower plans, I'd agree with the argument that the claimed reduction in value vs the old plans is often false or exagerrated.

Like I say, the only users they're interested in at this level of usage are those with a pretty average user profile. In your case you've got a 2:1 split between your peak and off-peak and high uploads. Of course, this isn't particularly out of place in the context of WP, but we're talking about the mass market here... it doesn't fit that profile, so yes, in your example you would be seeing less value in the new scenario.

This is the exact point I've had all along. Across the board, the current offerings are about the same or better than the old ones, with an important exception at the top end. People in that range who can't fit the context of Professional (or Business Signature 40GB if they have an ABN), they clearly no longer want to sign up in the first place.

TicTacToe writes...

For an average saving of $10/month, I'd be prepared to agree to a new contract.

You've been misled by your own post. Advantage is $50/mo, Freedom is $60/mo. If you include your adjustment then it works out the same cost as Advantage over 24 months, but that's only true if Optus gives an existing customer the 4 free months.

twistynoodle writes...

You've been misled by your own post. Advantage is $50/mo, Freedom is $60/mo. If you include your adjustment then it works out the same cost as Advantage over 24 months

You've misread my post if you think I said anything different. I've said throughout this thread that Advantage and Freedom are at the same price point when you include the 4 months free on 24 month contracts as most people would take.

that's only true if Optus gives an existing customer the 4 free months

They will if you start a new 24 month contract. They won't if you don't.

TicTacToe writes...

Yes. Fixed telephony has only just started to go into decline – that is off a VERY large base!

Most people still have mobiles with huge caps. I don't see why people are so eager about these plans if they have a mobile.

I am on the old school optus plan. 3 months free every year, 14gig download + 14gig off peak, unlimited* upload, no excess fees for going over my cap all for $65 a month.

Good luck getting me to switch to the current offers :)

identitymatrix writes...

I am on the old school optus plan. 3 months free every year, 14gig download + 14gig off peak

wow how long have you been on this plan and you still dont know that unlimited is 12gb peak/24gb offpeak

unlimited* upload,

there is a limit and its with the AUP. You saying its unlimited show to me you have been nowhere near what Optusnet classifies as excessive

identitymatrix writes...

Good luck getting me to switch to the current offers :)

And it seems you're not alone. Those on the older plans want to stay there. Surely if the newer plans were such great value, then people on the older plans would be flying to ditch their old plans and jump onto Fusion.

AFN writes...

then people on the older plans would be flying to ditch their old plans and jump onto Fusion.

I get the impression that this has actually occured in a large number of cases – there were certainly a surprising number of WP users who reported doing just that.

Then on the other side of the coin, a large portion of Fusion's target market are phone-dependant users who may be new to broadband.

You're on losing argument if you're going for the "It's no good because it isn't popular" line, because in fact it is popular – that is well established.

TicTacToe writes...

You're on losing argument if you're going for the "It's no good because it isn't popular" line, because in fact it is popular – that is well established

OK 2 points:

1. I did just that, went from the 12/24 to Fusion Mk1 plan, and saved a lot on phone calls. However, the 20 gig is skinny and its therefore a compromise. For that reason I am looking at BP with 25 gig and free calls for $10 extra per month. Trust me the extra 5 gig would get me through the month.

2. You surely cannot argue that the Fusion MkII plans represent a rise in value and are better for the punter than the original fusion. THat said, it proves the OP's point, that pricing has gone backwards, in that limited example.

I often wonder if the following model was adopted it would be a win for providers and users.

Monthly usage based on download or upload whichever is the greater.

Unlimited usage charged at say $1-25 per gb.

A minimum spend of say $20 per month.

AFN writes...

2. You surely cannot argue that the Fusion MkII plans represent a rise in value and are better for the punter than the original fusion. THat said, it proves the OP's point, that pricing has gone backwards, in that limited example.

Now you really are clutching at straws!

We've gone an assertion that all these new plans are worse than the classic ones (as per the thread title) to Fusion Mk II is worse than Fusion Mk I. I'll take that as my overall position that the new plans are not worse than the classic ones being accepted. :)

Certainly, if you do want to change the topic to Fusion Mk I vs Fusion Mk II, then my thoughts on that have been pretty clear since before it even happened:

/forum-replies.cfm?t=859052&r=13615375#r13615375
/forum-replies.cfm?t=869400&r=13796146#r13796146

TicTacToe writes...

Naturally we can all now see that it is an extraordinarily successful product for them. So people here kind of made the wrong call on that one.

Don't get me wrong... unlike my original attitude to Fusion, if this excess usage charging comes into being, I think it's terrible and destroys one of Fusion's best selling points, that being of a known fixed price bill for basically everything except calls to non-Optus mobiles and other premium calls.

But the plan ain't doomed if they do introduce charging for excess usage on it.

The underlying value of the plan hasn't changed and I gather it's still a successful product for them from what they're saying. I stand by my comments – I think it's stupid to be charging excess usage fees on a Fusion plan of all things, but for most people who don't go over their limit, there isn't any actual reduction in value there.

TicTacToe writes...

Now you really are clutching at straws!

Hi Tic Tac Toe

I appreciate your point of view that if you are not a heavy downloader and make a lot of phone calls the new plans are great.

I am just the opposite I make very few phone calls and for them I use voip, I am on the old 20/40 plan and use all my quota every month.

I assume that optus do not really want customers like me, hence the new plans, that is their right, if they force me off the plan I am on I would have to go elsewhere, reluctantly because optus has always been very reliable and helpful for me.

From MY point of view internet pricing is going backwards.

drawlll writes...

I am just the opposite I make very few phone calls and for them I use voip, I am on the old 20/40 plan and use all my quota every month.

You are in the exact same situation as me, and like you I won't be going to the Fusion plans either.

I assume that optus do not really want customers like me, hence the new plans, that is their right, if they force me off the plan I am on I would have to go elsewhere, reluctantly because optus has always been very reliable and helpful for me.

Optusnet doesn't have a history of forcing users off old plans onto new ones, in fact you'll probably find there are people here on a plan going back 2 or 3 sets and haven't been forced to move off them.

TicTacToe writes...

Certainly, if you do want to change the topic to Fusion Mk I vs Fusion Mk II, then my thoughts on that have been pretty clear since before it even happened

Part of the same topic. Surely Fusion II is evidence of the pricing of the net provision by Optus going bacwards. You cant just ignore Fusion II it's the latest offering by Optus.

Perception is also important and there are many on this site who perceive that Optus has worsened their internet packages from what they offered less than 1 year ago.

Yes, we agree Optus doesn't want the huge users in their customer base, so maybe they are discouraged via the Fusion plans and threat of $150 per gig over. And their plans are probably getting the punters in. Punters who probably only know about Optus, Telstra and Virgin.

AFN writes...

evidence of the pricing of the net provision by Optus going bacwards.

It's more of a levelling of pricing policies than a step backwards. A few years ago it was accepted that heavy internet users could be entertained because light/moderate users would subsidise their existence.

That's no longer the case though, because of the advent of Youtube and other bandwidth hungry applications the light users are no longer light users. The only thing an ISP can do to stay profitable (and it's not just Optus, look around at providers like Internode, Iinet and Exetel) is increase prices and reduce quotas.

so maybe they are discouraged via the Fusion plans and threat of $150 per gig over.

It's obvious that throttling wasn't acting as enough of a deterrent, when people would still use all of their allowance early in the month and keep leaching for the rest of the month at throttled speeds. Charging a high fee for the first 2G over what you've paid for will be a deterrent.

AFN writes...

Part of the same topic. Surely Fusion II is evidence of the pricing of the net provision by Optus going bacwards. You cant just ignore Fusion II it's the latest offering by Optus.

I'm not ignoring it... it was in fact Fusion II (or lets call it as optus does, 'yes' Fusion) that we used in the detailed side-by-side comparison, back here:

/forum-replies.cfm?t=999248&p=2#r36

It's already been demonstrated that it's reasonably comparable and isn't a step backwards at all.

So few people actually go over their limits that you're simply misconstruing the situation if you're trying to use this as evidence as a step backwards and really is a clutching at straws – you seem astoundingly keen to force fit these plans into the "step backwards" tag, but the facts get in the way.

Tezmyster writes...

Optusnet doesn't have a history of forcing users off old plans onto new ones, in fact you'll probably find there are people here on a plan going back 2 or 3 sets and haven't been forced to move off them.

I wonder what percentage of Optus Cable net service subscribers are on superceded plans.

I would certainly leave Optus completely (bb net, 2xphone and dial-up net services) if it withdrew my existing grandfathered plan. (I suspect many others would as well).

There is probably a tipping point but only Optus insiders would know if there is and what it actually is.

That would leave Optus in a bit of a quandry. Either leave grandfathered plan subs as they are, move subs. to a more attractive current plan, or lose subs. to a competitor.

Cheers :)

Whirl writes...

I would certainly leave Optus completely (bb net, 2xphone and dial-up net services) if it withdrew my existing grandfathered plan. (I suspect many others would as well).

Yea same here.

Whirl writes...

That would leave Optus in a bit of a quandry. Either leave grandfathered plan subs as they are, move them to a more attractive current plan, or lose them to a competitor.

Not really – as Tezmyster has said, Optus' track record is to primarily leave existing customers as is and let old plans die off as a result of natural attrition. That said, the increasing ability that people are reporting of being able to take their old plans with them when they move calls this approach into question.

Also I'd be willing to bet that Optus would have looked at how their rather significant userbase of existing users were actually using their plans when coming out with what they are now offering. Us armchair CEOs here in WP could only guess at that kind of thing – Optus' product managers would actually know the answer to that question. If they wanted to, they'd also know how much people were actually using their off-peak and I'm sure could even profile what kind of overall impact heavy off-peak users had compared to people who mainly just used their peak allowance.

In the 2006 Census on 8/08/2006, 2,802,188 out of 7,144,096 Australian households were recorded as having broadband, or 39%.

According to the Optus financial reports, as at 30/9/2006 they had 676,000 broadband customers, or roughly a quarter of the then market and about 9.5% of households. That's kind of a lot of users if you ask me. Their most recent published data as at 31/3/2008 puts them at 907,000 including wholesale.

I suspect there's no quandry for them at all.

TicTacToe writes...

I suspect there's no quandry for them at all.

TTT, imho your post simplifies a lot of business issues that can be quite complex.

Many telcos, including Optus, generate much of their revenue from bundled offerings. I don't think that BB internet services are Optus's cash-cow. That is more likely to be its phone services. I say this because Optus tends to focus its offerings a lot more on tightly bundled combined phone / net offerings these days.

I suspect that many subs. on Grandfathered plans are also on loosely coupled phone service bundles. Alienate those subs. and you're likely to lose both their net and their phone service business. Losing the BB net service subs. probably wouldn't be too bad for Optus. But losing the phone service subs. would be a huge financial hit for it! (This tells me that the Grandfathered plans aren't going away anytime soon – which is probably fine for probably many!)

Cheers :)

Whirl writes...

Alienate those subs. and you're likely to lose both their net and their phone service business. Losing the BB net service subs. probably wouldn't be too bad for Optus. But losing the phone service subs. would be a huge financial hit for it!

Well yes and no. Look at what happened to resale. Optus actively pushed those people (ie. even existing users) away and their margins have recovered dramatically as a result from removing the dead weight. And with the AnyTime Cap and Fusion plans, Optus has certainly sent a strong message that fixed telephony is now in the final stage of the product lifecycle and they are going to use it as leverage.

I suspect that many subs. on Grandfathered plans are also on loosely coupled phone service bundles. Alienate those subs. and you're likely to lose both their net and their phone service business.

This comment is predicated on a stance that the new plans are generally worse value than the grandfathered plan. In case it wasn't clear, I disagree with this assertion! :)

Further to that, I suspect you are greatly overestimating how much of their userbase would be on grandfathered plans... just look at their growth – even if you assumed all people on grandfathered plans would stay there, their proportion is constantly dwindling. But the fact is that many people move to current plans – even here in WP we saw plenty of people jump on to Fusion. I bet the numbers would have been much greater outside the WP community (which is tiny in the scheme of things)

This tells me that the Grandfathered plans aren't going away anytime soon

Could you point me to where I said otherwise?

TicTacToe writes...

I suspect you are greatly overestimating how much of their userbase would be on grandfathered plans...

I'm not estimating anything TTT. I actually inquired in an earlier post as to what percentage of the existing subs. base is on superceded plans. I would be surprised if it is any greater than ten percent.

This comment is predicated on a stance that the new plans are generally worse value than the grandfathered plan. In case it wasn't clear, I disagree with this assertion! :)

The concept of "Value" is a subjective one. You believe the new plans aren't worse value. I believe that they are worse value. And we are both right. Think about it!

Could you point me to where I said otherwise?

On the contrary, I think we share the same view here.

Cheers :)

I probably shouldn't be reviving this thread, but I didn't want to start a new one.

I'm sure we'll all read different things into it and react in our own different ways, but contributors and readers of this thread would most likely be interested in reading this apcmag.com article, which is an interview between APC and the Optus Consumer Marketing honcho.

http://apcmag.com/Content.aspx?id=2704

Particularly, from this bit on:

APC: Some people are asking why it is that Optus is going in one direction with mobiles but in the other direction with broadband. For example, Optus was the company that broke Telstra's terrible caps in the early days by introducing unlimited broadband. Then it introduced caps itself. Then Optus had Fusion which included unlimited landline and calls to mobiles, and broadband with no excess usage fees, then Optus introduced excess usage fees.
 
MS: To be honest, we had just as many complaints from users who hated being throttled to dialup speed, so we were in a betwixt and between position on that one. Our previous plans said you could go to a certain amount and then it would be throttled down.
 
Our plan on the broadband moving forward is for throttling to be still available to customers but the bulk of customers wanted to continue on using and pay extra. They get an email warning them when they are near their limit and they can set up SMS alerts as well, so it's pretty hard to run up big bills from excess usage. However, we don't want to find ourselves in the position on broadband where customers have an unlimited amount of data at maximum high speeds, because the amount of investment in the network required is unsustainable.
 
The ones that don't like it the most are extreme users and for me to bring something to bear — and I'm still working on some plans for those types of users — but I don't think I should be basing my whole construct of plans around them.
 
APC: But again, why introduce plans with unlimited voice usage, but on the other have tough limits on people's broadband usage?
 
MS: Well, I'd sort of deny that our limits are tough on the broadband, but more importantly, a voice phonecall has a much smaller impact on network usage than someone using broadband at full speed.
 
APC: Fair point.

Thanks for the info. Interesting.

TicTacToe quotes...

we had just as many complaints from users who hated being throttled to dialup speed

That confirms we're not a representative bunch here on WP. I don't remember anyone here supporting excess charges over throttling. This comment surprises me to the point where I find it difficult to believe.

Our plan on the broadband moving forward is for throttling to be still available to customers but the bulk of customers wanted to continue on using and pay extra.

This is not a good sign imho. It suggests to me that "moving forward" the bulk of customers will get what they want and we'll have excess charges on broadband only plans too.

It seems odd to me that Telstra have introduced throttled (Liberty) plans, whilst Optus have introduced excess charges. Does that mean the bulk of Telstra's customers prefer throttling over excess charges but the bulk of Optus' customers prefer the opposite? Weird (or lies)!

CMOTDibbler writes...

Thanks for the info... etc.
CMOTDibbler, all of this can be explained by one word – "consumer marketing chief."

(Imagine a world without marketing...)

CMOTDibbler writes...

That confirms we're not a representative bunch here on WP. I don't remember anyone here supporting excess charges over throttling. This comment surprises me to the point where I find it difficult to believe.

I seriously doubt many customers would have wanted to pay *more* for internet.

It would be interesting to start a survey and see how many people were asked the question by Optus and how many would like to pay excess fees.

For some reason, I was not asked by Optus:)

The problem is of course that optus should be made to publish what bandwidth they actally have and how many customers they have, so we can see for ourselves what speeds are obtained. Its silly of them to say that they can't have everyone uncapped, this is how almost every other country in the world works.

DanD writes...

The problem is of course that optus should be made to publish what bandwidth they actally have and how many customers they have, so we can see for ourselves what speeds are obtained.

Considering the amount of trouble other bidders for the NBN are having getting network details out of Telstra for the purposes of their bids do you really thing that Optus/Optusnet are going to freely release their network infrastructure details to just anyone?

Its silly of them to say that they can't have everyone uncapped, this is how almost every other country in the world works.

There has been a lot of talk lately of the US also bringing in usage caps to curb their high traffic issues.

Have a read..

http://www.saching.com/Article/Internet-usage-cap---Metered-billing-is-a-bad-idea---ISP-Bandwidth/56

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080602/tec_time_warner_cable_internet.html

http://jakebillo.com/rogers-introducing-internet-usage-caps-for-real-this-time/

What I find funny is that if the prices cotinue to go the way they are, wireless will soon be cheaper than wired. I get 7gb on peak and 14gb off peak (which i typically only use 4-5 gb) for $51.95, I can now get 7gb wireless for $49. Soon that will probably be 10gb. Especially considering that >75% of home users have laptops, they can take the internet with them if they move anymore.

DanD writes...

What I find funny is that if the prices cotinue to go the way they are, wireless will soon be