Whirlpool

A few months ago there was rampant complaining about Telstra exchanges having no room for MDFs etc for DSLAM equipment in a low proportion of mainly metro exchanges.

With the changing of switching technologies over the last 30 years from mechanical to digital and transmision technologies from analogue to digital and with SMOF / IP routers now in situ, the size of much of the telecomms equipment has radically reduced, which has left several older exchange sites in metro and regional areas with large floor areas that may never be fully utilised. :(

As these older Telstra exchange sites have: security, no-break power, air conditioning, floor loading capacity, and plenty of high speed (multiple 10 Gb/s SMOF feeds) into the IEN Routers, should Telstra be "encouraged" to make this space available for IP / Website / Gaming / Mirrored / etc Servers?

Let's face it, many of the metro and major regional Telstra exchange sites have the capability of very high capacity SMOF passing through them and this capacity could be very effectively utilised by direct connection to servers that could be co-located in these sites.

With a little twist of logisitcs, regional Telstra exchange sites should be ideal locations for massive numbers of IP servers and with very low overheads - as currently these Telstra exchange sites are cost centres - not profit centres - and a drain on the dividends. (**sob**sob**) :(

If the Fed' Gov' ever woke up to the offset usefullness of these regional telecommunications facilities, then this would virtually pay the way for the USO to be fully recovered! (**hooray**) :)

This being the case, how do we "encourage" Web host businesses to reconsider their overheads and move their hosting inland, while concurrently "encouraging" Telstra to offset their cost centres by some lateral thinking - or is this just too bloody difficult for simpletons in the industry?

data centers have different power requirement then exchanges,

racks are limited to 1kw in exchanges and 5kw in data centers.

from what i recall

BeenThere writes...

Let's face it, many of the metro and major regional Telstra exchange sites have the capability of very high capacity SMOF passing through them and this capacity could be very effectively utilised by direct connection to servers that could be co-located in these sites.

I know for a fact that at least some exchanges in Melbourne already are used in this capacity. I cant speak specifics except that a number of our customers hardware used to be housed in a data centre on a telstra exchange site.

I doubt many providers would be interested in locating their equipment onsite. for starters, the costs of the site would have to include the administration for provision of the access on top of the actual costs of providing the service, and then access would have to be by appointment only - no direct access.

while the idea is not silly in terms of some of the savings, in the real world I can't see it happening.

BeenThere writes...

should Telstra be "encouraged" to make this space available for IP / Website / Gaming / Mirrored / etc Servers?

They already do co-location (separate to TEBA) in around 10 exchanges across Australia.

telstrawholesale.com//pr...s/colocation.htm

To be honest, most residential exchanges aren't not really 'datacentre' grade facilities, and not something i'd be wanting to install anything other than Telco hardware into.

Telstra would have to sort out access problems before you could consider exchanges as a place to put equipment.

But why do we need more data centers?

How many people would host their own content if providers would simply allow enough upload capacity?!

See: www.bowenvale.pointclark.net/ben

It's no a 2mbit link. How much more hosting does one small web site need?!

I could host it off a server with a 100mbit connection to it but what's the point or need? How many people do you think are really going to be interested in checking out a web site showing photos of my first child? Sure if I was Paris Hilton then there might be some interest.

Cheers WTW

Edit: Ben's web site actually uses ~100mb. How much of the site do you think most people will actually want to view? Chances are that it would cost me more in traffic to upload the whole thing to my ISPs web server than to just serve it off my own server.

Michael Davis writes...

They already do co-location (separate to TEBA) in around 10 exchanges across Australia.

"Great" - wot about fully utilising the regional exchange sites as much as possible, that would take up a further 80 to 120 sites and facilitate the USO and provide the throughput in country areas to make regional, rural and remote services break even!

To be honest, most residential exchanges aren't not really 'datacentre' grade facilities, and not something i'd be wanting to install anything other than Telco hardware into.

Luv your honesty - but this is all about radically changing the way things have been done. So if the A/C and flooring was altered to provide floor to ceiling air flow (as it is in many major exchange sites) - wots the other issues?

BeenThere writes...

So if the A/C and flooring was altered to provide floor to ceiling air flow (as it is in many major exchange sites) - wots the other issues?

Exchanges have a heatloading design of around 300w/sqm. Datacentres have a design spec of 2000w/sqm to 4000w/sqm.

Datacentres typically have hot aisle/cold aisle arrangement. Exchanges don't.

If you're going to spend the kind of money to upgrade exchanges in regional areas to be data centres, then you might as well do that in metro areas where IP transit is much cheaper (a more dominant cost than power/cooling/land).

packetstorm writes...

while the idea is not silly in terms of some of the savings, in the real world I can't see it happening.

Agreed, the Data Centre people need to think outside their four walls and start to operate remote to their servers - like telecomms have done for the past 25 years. This is the real blocker!

...the access on top of the actual costs of providing the service, and then access would have to be by appointment only - no direct access.

That could easily be worked around!

White Red Dog writes...

data centres have different power requirement then exchanges, racks are limited to 1kw in exchanges and 5kw in data centres.

That is no big deal - what you are really referring to is power dissapation and that comes down to air conditioning and heat transfer.

Sure TEBA limits power dissapation to 1 kw/m2 or something like that, but these exchange buildings have everything else - including space and high ceilings - so raised floors are no real issue at all.

BeenThere writes...

wot about fully utilising the regional exchange sites as much as possible, that would take up a further 80 to 120 sites

Why? Imagine i am a content owner, and i have 10 racks full of servers i want to install in Australia to deliver content. Regardless of the quality of the facility, why would i host it out in regional Australia somewhere when i can put it into a world class datacentre somewhere in Sydney and connect into major peering fabrics and transit capacity from any number of providers?

As MMC's pointed out - it's about IP transit, not the lack of decent facilities.

BeenThere writes...

Sure TEBA limits power dissapation to 1 kw/m2

Rack - but a rack ends up using more space (front/rear access etc) plus common space, so the actual heat you can generate is 300w/sqm.

Matthew Moyle-Croft writes...

Datacentres typically have hot aisle/cold aisle arrangement. Exchanges don't.

err..exchages do too!

If you're going to spend the kind of money to upgrade exchanges in regional areas to be data centres, then you might as well do that in metro areas where IP transit is much cheaper (a more dominant cost than power/cooling/land).

My thinking is to really decentralise the data servers / centres so they are not any part of the metro landscape.

IP transit with SMOF is dirt cheap, and by putting the servers in the bush (>400 km inland) this gives the bush a synergy of high density traffic - which in turn facilitates regional and rural growth.

"If you really love your Servers, then let them go!"

Michael Davis writes...

Why? Imagine i am a content owner, and i have 10 racks full of servers i want to install in Australia to deliver content. Regardless of the quality of the facility, why would i host it out in regional Australia somewhere when i can put it into a world class datacentre somewhere in Sydney and connect into major peering fabrics and transit capacity from any number of providers?

I think thats it in a nutshell.

Lets take for example the age old issue of backhaul charges which is one of the factors preventing ISPs such as yours from a mass rollout into rural Australia.

If there is only one link to the major customers of a content provider and that link would be charged at a high cost to connect a content provider to their customers why would a content provider choose that option when major metropolitan areas have substantially more cost effective options (such as PIPE which has co-locations at their POPs)

Spudda writes...

Lets take for example the age old issue of backhaul charges which is one of the factors preventing ISPs such as yours from a mass rollout into rural Australia.

I think we all agree that pays a huge part. BeenThere keeps telling us that 'IP transit with SMOF is dirt cheap', and yet it's already been well established that isn't the case throughout much of Australia where competition doesn't exist outside of the big T.

Michael Davis writes...

why would i host it out in regional Australia somewhere when i can put it into a world class datacentre somewhere in Sydney and connect into major peering fabrics and transit capacity from any number of providers?

If the Gov 'enticed' you to do so you would leap for it, but I am guessing that you don't want to leave home and to date have not travelled west of Penrith, Lithgow or even (dare I say it).....Orange! (Or east of Kalgoorlie!)

BeenThere writes...

err..exchages do too!

Really? News to me. How do you do hot/cold aisle with ETSI telco equipment?

BeenThere writes...

err..exchages do too!

Which is the cold aisle in room full of AXE racks?

If this is a good idea then I think Farmers with money should set it up in their areas.

At present I suspect that we'd find that Telstra won't sell capacity to you at a price that makes it worthwhile.

BeenThere writes...

IP transit with SMOF is dirt cheap, and by putting the servers in the bush (>400 km inland)

400km of SMOF is not dirt cheap.

At $29/m (which is what PPC-1 is costing) that's almost $12m dollars just for the transit back to the people who want the data.

Then what do you do when you want to add a new server to the rack? Sure I guess we could give the local lines guy in Wogawoga another job.

When Matthew wants to add a new server to his rack does he really want to drive 400km? Do we bring the lines guy into town to give him training on the new gear? I guess we could use HDVC to talk in through the job?

Cheers WTW

canon1d writes...

Which is the cold aisle in room full of AXE racks?

The aisle where the customers have all been moved to iiNode naked DSL connections and are now using cheap VoIP.

Cheers WTW

WTW writes...

The aisle where the customers have all been moved to iiNode naked DSL connections and are now using cheap VoIP.

Agile wish. Get back to me when their VOIP SIOs pass 5 digits.

WTW writes...

If this is a good idea then I think Farmers with money should set it up in their areas.

but that is like saying, bum's living in the street should invest in the currency market, and sink there $1 in one of the booming African nations in civil war.

Telstra already have Data Centres and co-lo in several of their data centres in Sydney and Melb that I know of.

After having worked inside the one in the Sydney CBD (anyone in the industry knows which one I mean) I can safely say it would have been better for Telstra to start with a greenfields site and build it from the ground up properly than trying to retrofit the exchange to cope with a data centre.

The site in questions have problems over the last few years with:
* Power or lack of.
* Air conditioning.
* Parking or lack of.
* Storage.
* Access and space to run cables between floors.
* Backup power.
* Water supply.
* Fire suppression.

Telstra have been working on these things continously and the site is like a permanent construction site.

It would have been better to build a permanent site like Global Switch from scratch elsewhere in the CBD or Sydney region and use the spare floors in the exchange for something else.

canon1d writes...

Which is the cold aisle in room full of AXE racks?

AXE racking is rather old technology (circa 1975-80), and printed circuit assemblies were fairly infant then with multilayer boards being rare and avoided wherever possible.

Nevertheless, even though the AXE boards were generally no bigger than an A4 page, AXE racking was designed with a cold front side and a hot back with non-forced convection cooling, so when 2 racks were mounted back to back there is a central flue for convection flow - just as a chimney in a house.

The hot isle/cold isle approach only came in with boards being typically A3 and bigger, and even then most telecomms and data equipment manufacturers fan force cool their equipment - mostly from front to back in the equipment and floor to ceiling (through the racks) for the building A/C.

As Data Centre equipment matures, it is converging towards telecomms equipment racking standards, and telecomms equipment is also converging towards Data Centre standards, but currently is more conservative.

As the wiring denity is one limiting factor, newer technologies will emerge with lower power consumptions per unit volume and these apparently two technologies will become convergent - though I sense that the egos of most Data Centre operators will be rather bruised in the process!

BeenThere writes...

Nevertheless, even though the AXE boards were generally no bigger than an A4 page, AXE racking was designed with a cold front side and a hot back with non-forced convection cooling, so when 2 racks were mounted back to back there is a central flue for convection flow - just as a chimney in a house.

Which is not a cold aisle hot aisle layout as you suggested with the throw away generalisation.

scoobydoosti writes...

Telstra have been working on these things continously and the site is like a permanent construction site.

Sounds like your life is the pits!

It would have been better to build a permanent site like Global Switch from scratch elsewhere in the CBD or Sydney region and use the spare floors in the exchange for something else.

IMHO I think that building was structurally a poor choice - but that is spilt milk.

BeenThere writes...

Sounds like your life is the pits!

IMHO I think that building was structurally a poor choice - but that is spilt milk.

Quite the opposite.

I learnt a lot from working in this particular data centre on both how to do things and how not to do things.

The building was indeed a poor choice for a data centre as is the other Telstra data centres in the cbd but you are right and what is done is done.

BeenThere writes...

IMHO I think that building was structurally a poor choice - but that is spilt milk.

Why? It seems to be working pretty darn well so far. A lot of major banks and telecommunicatons companies seem to agree.

As Data Centre equipment matures, it is converging towards telecomms equipment racking standards, and telecomms equipment is also converging towards Data Centre standards, but currently is more conservative.

Eh? Currently DC equipment isn't going anywhere NEAR telco racking standards. It's not 300mm deep, it's not low power/low heat. But then you say telco stuff is going the other way - in which case any spare aircon at these exchanges will be used up.

So the facts of the matter are:
(1) Regional Exchanges are not built to be data centres. They lack the power/cooling. Adapting them to do so isn't useful as:
(2) The major factor for cost isn't land, it's IP transit and telecommunication costs. Neither of which are cheap in Telstra exchanges!

If you want to build data centres in regional areas - do so. Find locations with lots of power, land, staff and access to telecommunications similar to Sydney/Melbourne. Preferably cool! But trying to retrofit Telstra exchanges is just not a viable idea.

Matthew Moyle-Croft writes...

Find locations with lots of power, land, staff and access to telecommunications similar to Sydney/Melbourne. Preferably cool!

Sounds like somewhere in Tas would be ideal if we could just get that third cable lit.

Cheers WTW

Whats this guy talking about?

My home has air conditioning, ample space, 24 hour access and substantial telecommunications connections, security, ample parking, etc. Why don't we just start installing data centers in houses as well! I am sure you could put a bit of kit up in your roof! HELL, someone can come and put servers in by roof ANY DAY, I promise they won't go missing!

When your building a house you don't start with a shed and build it up, sure it will work, but it's not really a house is it?

The same goes for a data center, you don't move it away from the traffic, because then it's not really a data 'center' is it?

Can I suggest readers read this link from top to bottom: /forum-replies.cfm?t=978066&ux=55106

Have a think out side of the square about what he's saying, what he's asking and what he's telling you.

I have to confess I'm not very good at this either, so I confess I'm a pot here as much as you kettles.

Cheers WTW

Whats this guy talking about?

I'm not sure, but almost every one of his posts includes the acronyms IEN and SMOF. He's either read about them both in Wikipedia recently (and does not understand their purpose or regulatory aspects) or he thinks they are the solution to every telecommunications issue in the country :-)

My dog is sick. I will try some SMoF

The Humble Administrator writes...

'm not sure, but almost every one of his posts includes the acronyms IEN and SMOF. He's either read about them both in Wikipedia recently (and does not understand their purpose or regulatory aspects) or he thinks they are the solution to every telecommunications issue in the country :-)

Or just maybe he works in the industry where they are common and well understood terms.

Not everyone who posts here without a Rep tag is a punter.

canon1d writes...

Or just maybe he works in the industry where they are common and well understood terms.


Maybe he's just been reading this site and over dosed on the words: www.moore.org.au/comms/05/05_comms.htm

Cheers WTW

The Humble Administrator writes...

My dog is sick. I will try some SMoF

Just make sure you don't use angled connectors. Turns them green.

Just make sure you don't use angled connectors. Turns them green.

That's OK MMC. I like the blue ones myself. Half the time you order angled SC and they give you flat ones instead :-)

BeenThere writes...

With the changing of switching technologies over the last 30 years from mechanical to digital and transmision technologies from analogue to digital and with SMOF / IP routers now in situ, the size of much of the telecomms equipment has radically reduced, which has left several older exchange sites in metro and regional areas with large floor areas that may never be fully utilised. :(

I can definately vouch for this, when I did work experience for Optus in Sydney, we went to some Telstra exchanges and I couldn't believe how empty some of the exchanges were.

Tell me some of these big regional exchanges?
Especially in Vic. They interest me.

CM Mike writes...

Tell me some of these big regional exchanges?
Especially in Vic. They interest me.

I would hazard a guess at Shepparton, Swan Hill, Horsham, Wangaratta, Morwell, Sale, because these exchanges would have had in the order of 10,000 to 30,000 lines of SxS equipment and significant analogue transmission equipment before the 1970's, before this was translated over to Xbar, and then probably some AXE and S12 by 2000.

Similarly in these same exchange sites, the large footprint analogue transmission systems used for open wire transmission would have been replaced by about 1975 with Coax and later digital systems by about 1990, and then revamped again with SMOF systems by about 2002.

This would I believe, give a space of about say 20 m * 15 m at least in each site.

In NSW: Broken Hill, Mildura, Griffith, Cobar Bourke, Bathurst, Armidale, Glen Innes, etc for the rest of Australia

Geelong could also be a candidate as it had S12 equipment in by about 1995 (but I can't remember the rest of the floors layouts)!

BeenThere writes...

This would I believe, give a space of about say 20 m * 15 m at least in each site.

To put things in context:

Global Switch in Sydney totals 41,575 sqm
Equinix at Mascot will have 10,000 sqm

But have already spent money acquiring appropriate power, airconditioning etc. The cost of IP transit at both is as cheap as it gets in Australia.

So, it not very clear why one would want to put stuff so far from cheap transit.

Matthew Moyle-Croft writes...

So, it not very clear why one would want to put stuff so far from cheap transit.

You wouldn't, the links were never designed for such use and would reduce the capacity for future upgrades.

This idea was not thought out very well, apart from "hey they have some space and an internet connection!"

Futurama writes...

This idea was not thought out very well, apart from "hey they have some space and an internet connection!"

Spot on! I raised the thread purely as a speculation to see what people would say and to expose their commercial / political alliances! :))

No you didn't, come on mate.

We have all had silly ideas.

BeenThere writes...

I would hazard a guess at Shepparton, Swan Hill, Horsham, Wangaratta, Morwell, Sale, because these exchanges would have had in the order of 10,000 to 30,000 lines of SxS equipment and significant analogue transmission equipment before the 1970's, before this was translated over to Xbar, and then probably some AXE and S12 by 2000.

Hmm ok. So, how do you get to see inside all of them? Work for Telstra?

CM Mike writes...

Hmm ok. So, how do you get to see inside all of them? Work for Telstra?

Does it really make a difference? He could have worked for Telstra directly, or any number of contractors and access seekers.

BeenThere writes...

Spot on! I raised the thread purely as a speculation to see what people would say and to expose their commercial / political alliances!

I don't think anyone's commercial/political "alliances" were exposed. An idea was raised, more knowledgeable people shot it down, or at least pointed out some limitations to it

Theres really not that much in an exchange, bendigo Short st exchange has a fair bit of space free.

Just imagine a large room, with metal racks, a door or two, hundreds/thousands of termination blocks and lots of red and white wire running all over the metal frame, kind of like a web.

Oh and some dust and occasionally a pump, thats it.

Matthew Moyle-Croft writes...

Really? News to me. How do you do hot/cold aisle with ETSI telco equipment?
Yes, it's done alot in the exchanges.

The Humble Administrator writes...

SMOF.

I thought everyone who even had a remote interest in IT was a Secret Master Of Fandom. Thats what we are talking about isnt it???!?!??!?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMOF

www.sun.com/products/sunmd/s20/index.jsp

Lets just get some of theres everywhere

Michael Davis writes...

Does it really make a difference? He could have worked for Telstra directly, or any number of contractors and access seekers.

I guess not, just curious. I'd love to see inside some of them.

CM Mike writes...

I'd love to see inside some of them.

www.moore.org.au/comms/04/04_comms.htm

Check out that page and the rest of the web site. There's lots of good photos of bits of the insides of exchanges.

Cheers WTW