Have you ever had a thread that was moving nice and smoothely, only to be killed off by a single stray comment? Ouch, thread killers are so out there, you know who they are. Basically a thread stands teettering over the edge of the abyss.

You know what would be great? A herring option for potential thread killing. Basically, if someone posts a comment which leads to the destruction of a thread, then snap, deleted. The way you could do this, is if nobody posts after that person for 6 hours, and someone herrings the post for thread killing, the post is not only deleted, but appears invisible to everyone on the forum. Only after someone resurrects that thread can the post return to it's original form.

Anyways, stupid thought, but you know what I mean. I've seen plenty of threads killed, I've possibly killed a few myself. In fact most threads are killed eventually in this fashion, perhaps a rollback of the thread to a point in it's existence when it was on a high, rather then letting them die out on such a low.

Or the forum option to make thread killing posts invisible. Basically at the point where thread posts are fairly mundane, and coming few and far inbetween and the contents of them are boring, bang.

Or, under each post in a thread, is a scale from 1 to 10 on how much of a thread killer that post is. If more then 50% of the people who view the post think that it's a thread killer and vote higher then 5, the post is automatically deleted allowing for the thread to return to it's glory days.

Just a few thoughts. Don't take me seriously. I'm sure this thread will be killed off fast too.

L. Ron Hoover writes...

The way you could do this, is if nobody posts after that person for 6 hours, and someone herrings the post for thread killing, the post is not only deleted, but appears invisible to everyone on the forum

Never going to happen. That's not the way moderation is done on Whirlpool.

There's an easy way to restart a stalled thread: post a comment!

Thread killing does happen and I agree that some people take a thread OT on purpose to slow down any issue traction.

However there is a herring option for this and then you can put a comment in the 'Other field'.

One issue is that herrings aren't always dealt to quickly enough.

I don't think we have enough mods in Broadband, for example. The current mods are often not on line or following conversations else where.

A few whims to the forum mod about the user to raise attention to the behaviour of that user also helps. Some people are baned from some forums because they simply can't control them selves.

HTH

Cheers WTW

I do agree that certain posters can post disparaging comments that can irrevocably send a thread off-topic. This usually happens for contentious or topical issues in ItN, with so many opinions and so few people willing to back down or admit that they are wrong, something has to give. This something is often, unfortunately, in the form of personal attacks, going off-topic or trolling. Too many times I have seen a thread closed because of a minority of people.

J.

Foonly writes...

That's not the way moderation is done on Whirlpool.

That's a fair call.

I think we're all familiar with the phenomenon the OP is referring to. It happens in real life as well; all of a sudden what was a sparkling conversation suddenly stalls, and all that's left is tumbleweeds.

The trouble is that it would take more than posts being deleted to restore a thread's vitality; which is to say that some threads are just organic, they live and then they die. End of story.

WTW writes...

I don't think we have enough mods in Broadband, for example. The current mods are often not on line or following conversations else where.

I think you'll find the mod reaction time in Broadband compares favorably with most, if not all, other forums WTW.

For myself; if I'm pressed for time, I'll just look for herrings. Perhaps users could be reminded that the herring function is there for a reason and it's a two-way street, as far as getting to problems in a timely way is concerned.

I'll hasten to add that I'm not talking about you personally, your herring work rate is way more than most there. So perhaps, if we need more mods then it follows that we need more genuine herringers as well.

Justin. writes...

Too many times I have seen a thread closed because of a minority of people.

This, we can do something about; provided users alert us to what's going on :).

WTW writes...

there is a herring option for this

That said, there may be no herring options available in the threads the OP participates in. This is standard procedure for us who are subject to the GUWPCT guidelines, seeing this: /forum-alert.cfm?a=herring-baduser would make me want to start a thread about thread killers too :-)

Marvin Martian writes...

The trouble is that it would take more than posts being deleted to restore a thread's vitality; which is to say that some threads are just organic, they live and then they die. End of story.

Agreed. Threads can always be resurrected by another appropriate comment anyway.

Tasc writes...

This is standard procedure for us who are subject to the GUWPCT guidelines, seeing this: /forum-alert.cfm?a=herring-baduser­ would make me want to start a thread about thread killers too

What's the go with this exactly? I've never heard of it before.(Sorry hopefully this isn't too OT considering the thread) ;)

This wasn't about off-topic comments, or people with differing oppinions.

The biggest reason I see threads going under, is simply because the conversation was making head room, when all of a sudden pretty much both sides of the arguement just give up apon seeing a random comment. I can barely give an example, if you get it, you get it.

Like in Broadband, it's not the other side of the arguement which kills off a thread, it's generally certain people who will say something that just annoys the heck out of both sides to the point where you feel the will to argue each sides arguement has just flown out the window.

Or sometimes, you get a comment where you feel the person writing has barely even staggered to read what has come before them. So, a big thread killer can be fixing up another person's errors with reading other peoples posts.

Example, conversation which started up in a thread in which case people were actively talking to two ISP reps including the CEO. People were asking a question to the reps, somebody interjects into the thread, and it literally goes offline, no more conversation with the ISP reps. The conversation was offtopic though, but was heated. It seemed to spawn it's own lifeforce within the thread itself, killed off by a stray comment.

I witnessed the death of a thread in the gaming section, killed off by a random comment. There's just a combination of things that seems to lead to a thread dying. Somebody should do some indepth research into this, might win a grant or something.

Also, what is with these gigantic part x style threads? I absolutely hate what was done to the NBN thread in broadband. It used to be, many threads were created depending on a headline in the news or something, or an idea that popped into their heads. Now, everything is just shoved into a giant multipart thread, and barely anything is really occuring. Barely anyone can truely be fussed over participating in it. If you do post something in it, tomorrow, your post and any possible replies are burried under 10 pages of crap.

If a thread is so popular your post is buried under 10 pages by the next day, do you truely think that 1 thread for the topic really does it justice? Take NBN for example, there could be upwards of 5 things to talk about, 5 possible threads, yet compressed into 1, means you get a tonne of crosstalk. Rofl.

Besides the best thing about a new discussion, is someone will post some new information at the start, some good quotes. Basically the multipart threads just completely lose their way, theirs no focus to the discussion. You basically let the entire thing just go random. Who can be stuffed looking back over a multipart thread?

Let's say you wanted to go and look at the GTA4 thread, rofl, why would you? Who's going to go back and read the entire thing? And if you post, you'll be buried under the snow by tomorrow, so why bother? Me thinks an IRC channel would be better suited to these styles of random chat.

L. Ron Hoover writes...

...in Broadband, it's not the other side of the arguement which kills off a thread, it's generally certain people who will say something that just annoys

A bigger problem is when a couple of regulars hijack the thread with OT comments and string in 20 comments before a mod can get to it.

I've started a number of threads which have been hijacked with comments about NBN or rural broadband - two issues that I'm rapidly losing interest in.

Cheers WTW

L. Ron Hoover writes...

Like in Broadband..

These types of things need to be herringed.

Only then can we be made aware that an evil thread killing post has been made and act on it, one way or another.

Also, what is with these gigantic part x style threads?

The problem is that once threads reach 50 paages or so, then they do need closing and usually they're quite active at that point; so it would be stifling to leave them closed, consequently new ones are opened.

. It used to be, many threads were created depending on a headline in the news or something, or an idea that popped into their heads. Now, everything is just shoved into a giant multipart thread

I think you'll find that this was before the whole FTTX bid process /NBN discussion was started.

We will close threads and redirect them to that one, unless the OP is structured in such a way that a new concept /approach /news article stimulates discussion.

We haven't deleted any threads (that I know of) re NBN that have been genuine attempts to broach new ground on the topic.

If you have any suggestions as to how this could be handled differently, or take issue with this approach; I'm sure we'd be happy to hear it.

Green §lime writes...

What's the go with this exactly?

GUWPCT is one of them things...

The herring message if for users who are not allowed to use the herring feature due to misuse, or so I believe.

WTW writes...

A bigger problem is when a couple of regulars hijack the thread with OT comments and string in 20 comments before a mod can get to it.

In a situation such as this, if a thread is seen to be spiraling out of control, then it may be appropriate to contact an online mod to see if the problem can be 'nipped in the bud', so to speak.

L. Ron Hoover writes...

Also, what is with these gigantic part x style threads? I absolutely hate what was done to the NBN thread in broadband. It used to be, many threads were created depending on a headline in the news or something, or an idea that popped into their heads. Now, everything is just shoved into a giant multipart thread, and barely anything is really occuring. Barely anyone can truely be fussed over participating in it. If you do post something in it, tomorrow, your post and any possible replies are burried under 10 pages of crap.

I'm sorry but I agree with the policy of the one gigantic thread for the NBN/FTTN mainly because it would create excessive moderation problems if people were allowed to create a new thread about a new headline. Invariably these "new headlines" deal with long-running and severally dealt-with issues meaning that similar arguments will be made.

When the process was more liberalised, there were people, including myself, who had whole bunches of posts removed for being "off-topic" because they'd failed to notice the umpteen different threads dealing with similar issues. That no longer occurs since all FTTN/NBN issues are in the FTTN/NBN thread, where they belong. Overall, whilst I recognise the problems of not being able to drive the discussion in a massive thread, it is a far better method than having too many repetitive threads simply due to a new headline today, that says largely the same thing as the headline yesterday and the day before.

EDIT:

However, having said that, there are instances where a large one-size-fits-all thread just doesn't work. I notice that the policy as trialled in the Gadget thread to deal with "what car" threads seemingly engulfing the the spread of discussion, but this was eventually disbanded simply because not enough attention could be drawn to the subsequently massive thread.

Clearly the mods will approach this in an ad-hoc fashion in light of the surrounding cirumstances.

Wile.E.Coyote writes...

In a situation such as this, if a thread is seen to be spiraling out of control, then it may be appropriate to contact an online mod to see if the problem can be 'nipped in the bud', so to speak.

There are a couple of ways to deal with it if you can get good mod support.

Personally I bounce whims with MM quite a bit in Broadband and he's expressed his thanks directly for herring stuff quickly that needs attention.

I agree that mod contact is worth while (providing the mod is no deck - it's an issue in Broadband that there are times that we don't seem to have on deck mods)

I find that also making a direct post addressing the thread topic helps as well. Sometimes I have to make more than one before the conversation heads in the direction of the topic I've posted.

Cheers WTW

Isn't a "thread killer" just a period (of the "full stop" variety) to a conversation that was about done and dusted anyway? I can't even think of how one strange post could stall an interesting forum discussion. You generally just ignore it.

It's not like the face-to-face equivalent where somebody suddenly spits out "I did it with my mum last night". If only you could herring that and carry on as though it was never said IRL.

WTW writes...

I've started a number of threads which have been hijacked with comments about NBN or rural broadband

I think there are a couple of ongoing themes in the broadband forum that will appear in most threads. This is not necessarily an attempt to drag a thread off topic or to kill discussion. I think it's just the way it is.

The first is the NBN. Even though you're losing interest, any thread that discusses the future of broadband services or the broadband industry is going to be viewed in the light of the NBN. The NBN is the future of broadband as far as the government is concerned. It's bound to get brought into any related discussion. I don't think this kills threads, though it may well drag them away from the direction the OP wanted them to head.

The second is some posters' hatred of Telstra. Any thread that presents even the remotest opportunity to attack Telstra will bring posts from the rabid, anti-Telstra jihadis. There is usually a string of posts all agreeing with each other that Telstra, their employees and/or their shareholders are evil. They generally add nothing to the discussion, but they're close enough to the topic that they can't be herringed. These posts are the thread killers for me. I generally can't be bothered wading through them to follow the thread.

Having said all that, I like the Broadband forum. There's a lot of interesting discussion and a lot of (generally) good-natured debate. I learn a lot from the posters there.

ferzal writes...

You generally just ignore it.

That's generally what I see happen. If a discussion is serious/important enough, both sides will simply ignore the post and continue.

Marvin Martian writes...

The problem is that once threads reach 50 paages or so, then they do need closing and usually they're quite active at that point; so it would be stifling to leave them closed, consequently new ones are opened. This is what I find to be one of the biggest discussion killers. I have been in many thread where people have been having a fine discussion, the thread is closed, and people dont bother to go to the new one, or its a while before they find it/get to it. On top of that, all the previous posts that you want to reference/ quote get left in the previous thread, making it that bit harder to find.

I think the threads should be left open.

CMOTDibbler writes...

The second is some posters' hatred of Telstra. Any thread that presents even the remotest opportunity to attack Telstra will bring posts from the rabid, anti-Telstra jihadis.

Of course, its not just one "side" that is guilty of that. There is just as much from the "other side" of "jihadiis" that should be acknowledged.

ernal writes...

I think the threads should be left open.

Alas, everyone would just post in the old thread, which is largely inconvenient from a database load point of view.

Loctorak writes...

.. from a database load point of view.

Just to make this quite clear; threads do have to be closed after 50 pages or so, for that reason.

Marvin Martian writes...

The problem is that once threads reach 50 paages or so, then they do need closing and usually they're quite active at that point; so it would be stifling to leave them closed, consequently new ones are opened.

Okay, instead of opening part 2 at this point, simple close the thread stating "oversized", and if the topic was that interesting, someone will create a new thread offering a good few paragraphs worth discussing.

~vaio writes...

However, having said that, there are instances where a large one-size-fits-all thread just doesn't work.

Many users are turned off the one-size-fits-all threads. Because, most of the time, they turn into what appears to be an IRC chat. I'm sorry, but, when I come here to view posts, I do so looking for insightful information. And most the time the large multipart threads are just devoid of information, because most people feel that their time spent writing up big posts with well thought out information is simply a waste of time.

Absolutely no good ever comes out of the large threads anyways. Too much crosstalk. Too many one liner posts.

If you're going to multipart a thread, perhaps it would be good that within the first post on the continuing thread, somebody outlines key posts within the previous part. Or if someone posts something inciteful, something that adds to the discussion, it gets flagged and a mod decides whether to highlight the post, in which case the post is outlined, and then an option within the thread lookup, could be to display only highlighted comments.

Loctorak writes...

Alas, everyone would just post in the old thread, which is largely inconvenient from a database load point of view.

Perhaps this could be done transperantly. Basically rather then manually multiparting a thread, perhaps you could design it into the system to have a rolling archival feature within each thread.

To do this when a thread got to 20 pages, instead of appearing as 1 2 3 4 5 ... 18 19 20. It would appear as follows Archived 11 12 13 ... 18 19 20. Which isn't such a bad idea, as quoting comments more then 10 pages previous is kind of thread killing in itself.

If threads are redesigned to contain multiple volumes, then there shouldn't be any need to manually seperate a thread. Also, if you want to maintain the discussion, you should take at least 5 pages from the previous thread, and include them in the new thread? Starting the thread with "continued from lalalalal", is thread killing in itself.

L. Ron Hoover writes...

Starting the thread with "continued from lalalalal", is thread killing in itself.

You've covered a lot of issues there. Some can be addressed and others cannot, due to coding issues.

Personally, I stopped posting in the FTTX /NBN threads after part 2 but that doesn't mean much. I've been keeping an eye on it. Without a concrete proposal to the contrary, I can't see how we can change things with regard to that thread.

I don't think leaving the thread closed until someone posted a new one would make any difference. In fact I know this to be the case. By the time I had closed the old one last time and started the new, another was already one established with as little opinion in the OP as my own.

The thing is that if mods open and close these mega or concatenated threads, then it be seen that there is some control being exercised. There would be even more trouble if they weren't kept an eye on, in the first few pages at least.

In summing up, the NBN thread seems okay despite the risk that the OP isn't directing discussion to a particular goal but I think the nature of the issue makes that a moot point. A brand new broadband network is being planned, the thread revolves around that simple and yet highly complex proposition.

Of course there is a lot of meta-discussion here about it and that's a good thing. (It keeps it out of the thread itself)!

Edit:syntax

Ignore this post.

Im Guilty of a few killing threads, altho there is no where else on this site to vent anger. And yes this is not a site to vent anger but to get information. Sometimes u forget about all that.

ernal writes...

I think the threads should be left open

A more sophisticated method for closing long running threads is required.

How about a process where the system applies a window or envelop of say 20 pages so that once the 21st page starts the first page is closed and so on, like a moving frame.

canon1d writes...

he system applies a window or envelop of say 20 pages so that once the 21st page starts the first page is closed and so on, like a moving frame.

Would it really make any difference if the threads were shorter (20 pages instead of 50) and the process automated?

In any case, we seem to all talking about the same NBN (concatenated) thread, which makes sense to me as it's necessarily the central area of interest for broadband and will continue to be for possibly years.

Everyone has an investment in the discussion and we're happy to listen to ideas about how it can be improved.

It is just me, or does the 'thread killer' issue seem to be pretty much exclusive to ItN?

Tone. writes...

It is just me, or does the 'thread killer' issue seem to be pretty much exclusive to ItN?

It may just be you because the way I read the MM posts it applies to Broadband.

Tone. writes...

It is just me, or does the 'thread killer' issue seem to be pretty much exclusive

Woa!... Hats off to you Mr Tone!

If you feel, after 19,000 odd posts, you have never killed a thread, then you done far far better than I, (a super human effort even) as it is my feeling I have killed my fair share, and would not have thought I was "too" different to the average punter...

I would never do it intentionally mind you, and I'd love to be proven wrong (that I have ever killed a thread at all), but I think what I am saying is that I'm sure it doesn't just apply to ITN.

And in answer to the OP "Are they evil?" No, certainly not... well, not necessarily. Although if it's deliberate, then that is different.

From threads I have followed with such comments... yet recover to continue, I think it is *much* better if the comment is gone - it is much less distracting - as you don't even read it in the first place - I think so anyway. So herring the evil ones for sure - makes for better threads all round.

...come to think of it, I've never had many posts deleted so I guess Im not that bad? :)

But there is a difference between trying to join in and not getting it right - and deliberately being an nuisance.