Whirlpool

I have been trying to churn away from AANET, and had my churn fail. After several phone calls, I found out that AANET has moved me onto their own hardware at the exchange, so I can no longer churn away. It appears my only option is to cancel my ADSL1, and then re-apply for ADSL1 with a new ISP. This costs significantly more than churning - about $120 instead of $40, and there will be significant downtime as well.

AANET initially denied they were the cause of my churn failure. Only when my 'new' ISP rang me, did I find out what had really happened - they said 'your line has just gained SSS status'. SSS status is also known as LSS - which is exactly what happens when you go to ADSL2.

The problem is, I didn't ask for ADSL2, and I don't want ADSL2. I rang AANET again, and they said 'Oh yeah, we moved your line onto our equipment on the exchange, and it went through today'.

I told them I don't want this, and asked why I wasn't notified, and they said 'It doesn't affect our ability to provide our service to you, so we didn't notify you'.

Well, wow, thanks AANET for tripling the cost to leave you, and making it really inconvenient to do so.

I emailed support@aanet.com.au, explained the situation, and asked nicely that they put me back onto Telstra hardware, so that I may churn away. I just got a reply - 'Task status: CLOSED'. It seems AANET are not interested.

I now think I have only two options: Small Claims Tribuneral, or the TIO.

Now that AANET is aiming for ADSL2, I would not be surprised if ALL of AANET's ADSL1 customers find themselves 'migrated' onto AANET hardware, and are also unable to churn away.

Any other ADSL1 users out there have a similar experience, and how did you resolve it?

Oops, I also meant to ask if this is the sort of thing the TIO will handle. I think it falls under "anti-competitive behaviour", but does that mean the TIO will just hand the case off to the ACCC?

Russ00 writes...

I also meant to ask if this is the sort of thing the TIO will handle. I think it falls under "anti-competitive behaviour", but does that mean the TIO will just hand the case off to the ACCC?

'Fast churn' was a feature of your service & it has been taken away without your consent. I would think this sort of shonky dealing is right up the TIO's alley.

While I sympathise and agree it's sounds a bit dodgy,
it would be nice if they had some ADSL2+ gear in my exchange so they could move me without asking!

Sods law isn't it....
"I want it.." "Can't have it."
"Don't want it.." "Bad luck, you got it anyway."

Russ00 writes...

I just got a reply - 'Task status: CLOSED'. It seems AANET are not interested.

It sounds like something may be wrong with their ticket system - Can't find the post right now, but somebody else just posted a similar thing too... I suggest call them

edit : This was the post I referred to - forums.aanet.com.au/view...p=206227#p206227

Russ00 writes...

I think it falls under "anti-competitive behaviour",

I disagree - this was an unfortunate consequence of moving you to their hardware, not the reason for doing so. However, they should warn people before doing so. As such, aaNet will have to either put you back on Telstra hardware or cover your cost of doing so. There's no ifs and buts about this one

aaGeoff writes...

However, they should warn people before doing so. As such, aaNet will have to either put you back on Telstra hardware or cover your cost of doing so. There's no ifs and buts about this one

thanks aaGeoff, good post & good info,

oh yes ditto +1,
.
edit: further good posting info :>
Forums » Other broadband » Datafast/Eftel » Query on SSS migration

:> /forum-replies.cfm?t=974550

.

Indeed, there may be a problem with their ticket system. The first reply simply said "closed", and they sent another reply at 5:08AM this morning.

In the second reply, they said 'We are not able to move you back to Telstra equipment', and offered me a 'free' change to an ADSL2 plan, once they are available.

I don't want ADSL2 - I want ADSL1. ADSL2 would have little to no advantage for me, and has a lot more problems with 'lock in' than ADSL1.

I have replied to AANET's email, saying that I am not interested in ADSL2.

This happaned to me too - I attempted to churn to TPG ADSL2+ only to find out it was blocked due to a "Pending Request" on the line So I emailed AANET 3 times over a period of 3 weeks and never got a response to my ticket. I rang them once and quoted my ticket number and the guy said it would be replied to within 48 hours, (Since the phone insisted that calling up was only if my internet connection did not work), however I think I was being too nice, because in the end I had to ring up and insist that they look into it now and I found out that they had placed a request to move me to a new system without telling me!. I've managed to churn away now but I was charged for another month which I completely cannot use due to this :(

Russ00 writes...

I don't want ADSL2 - ADSL2 would have little to no advantage for me, and has a lot more problems with 'lock in' than ADSL1.
I'm just curious why not? ADSL2 is generally cheaper, and considering that you are already locked in anyway so it couldn't hurt to try it. (although you still can "churn" to some other ADSL2 providers)

However, they did still change the conditions of your service without warning you, so if it's ASDL1 that you really want you're quite justified in your complaint

Another related issue that I just thought of - what happens to customers wanting to use the Homeline Budget plan? People already on the plan may get away with it because Telstra's too slack to check, but people wanting to take it up...?

aaGeoff writes...

but people wanting to take it up...?

Telstra cannot refuse any customer Homeline budget because they use a SSS service - as it does not comply with the Operational Separation requirements that govern Telstra.

In fact, Telstra Retail systems do not even know if you have an SSS service.

Jason

aaGeoff writes...

However, they did still change the conditions

The conditions of the service were not changed.

The ability to Fast Churn is not in the conditions of the service.

What do you think is going to happen to the tens of thousands of Westnet customers now that iiNet have purchased them? They will be moved off Telstra hardware onto iiNet's DSLAMs.

This is no different.

Jason

Jason Μ writes...

The ability to Fast Churn is not in the conditions of the service

No, but it's an advertised feature (or was).

Ability to churn is one of the important criteria that people use when choosing an ISP. It was certainly one of the reasons that I came to aaNet.

Westnet customers will hopefully get ample warning when the time comes. Hopefully iiNet has learnt from the last time they faced this issue

Telstra cannot refuse any customer Homeline budget because they use a SSS service -
That's good, thanks for the clarification

aaGeoff writes...

Ability to churn is one of the important criteria that people use when choosing an ISP.

At no time does it say anywhere on the aaNet website that we promise to allow customers to churn away.

In fact, if you read the SFOA, the point that I detailed above specifically states that we decide how we deliver the service.

Jason

For those of us who are being transfered to aanet DSLAMs, wouldn't you want to tranfer to a DSL2 service, as it is cheaper, even if you don't need the extra speed?

If you stay on DSL1, your paying the initial premium price set by aanet due to using a Telstra DSLAM. Once you get moved to aanet DSLAM, their costs for that port decrease (as they are not renting a Telstra port) and the end user continues to pay the high Telstra based price (unless moved to a DSL2 plan which is based on aanet DSLAM port pricing). Am I correct in saying this?

DSL1 plan - Telstra port pricing
DSL2 plan - aanet port pricing

dj007 writes...

wouldn't you want to tranfer to a DSL2 service

ADSL2 plans, for existing customers, will be released shortly.

Jason

aaGeoff writes...

No, but it's an advertised feature (or was).

Ability to churn is one of the important criteria that people use when choosing an ISP.

No, it was never an advertised feature, Geoff. We understand that Broadband Choice makes it a feature, and it is a valuable point to know, but it has never been something we have promoted, via aaNet or EFTel. Most customers don't know about it, have no interest in it, and just want the service.

Regards,
John.

John Lane writes...

No, it was never an advertised feature, Geoff.

No, you just have a web page dedicated to explaining it ;)
www.aanet.com.au/churn

Cmon John, be fair... I'm not interested in arguing technicalities of wording but we all know that it is at the very least an implied feature and it would certainly be a reasonable goodwill gesture to help this guy out? (and to warn people in future to save yourself this problem ongoing)

This particular question has been answered in the aaNet SFOA.

www.aanet.com.au/sfoa.html

8.6 We will determine the route and technical means by which we provide the service. You authorise us to act as your agent if we decide to alter how we provide the service and we require that authorisation.

This means that the type of network we use in order to provide the service does not affect the terms and conditions of your contract. In this case we have decided to use our own network to provide the service, rather than reselling that of Telstra. Unfortunately the inter-reseller process know as "fast churn" is only available to ISPs transferring customers on the Telstra network. You are still free to transfer to another provider using the SST process (i.e. allowing you to transfer to an ADSL2 service). Alternatively, if you wish to disconnect the service the line codes will be removed, allowing you to connect with any other provider.

Jason

I would argue that the ability to churn away is a feature that *I* own. Last time I checked, it was ME who paid the ADSL1 installation charge (and that wasn't through AANET), so surely *I* get to control that feature?

Sure, I can voluntarily give it away, if I wanted to go to ADSL2, or choose a provider who doesn't support fast churn. Fact is, I chose a provider who DID support fast churn.

aaGeoff writes...

Cmon John, be fair... I'm not interested in arguing technicalities of wording but we all know that it is at the very least an implied feature and it would certainly be a reasonable goodwill gesture to help this guy out? (and to warn people in future to save yourself this problem ongoing)

It's on aaNet's sales page, it's in their FAQ's; there is nothing "implied" about it.

This is a cynical, grubby exercise and no amount of quoting T&C's will change that.

Shame on you aaNet!

Just because it's in a document doesn't necessarily mean it's legally correct. Especially when something else is implied elsewhere.

But, like I said, I'm not interesting in arguing about wording - that's for someone else to do. You know that I normally back you guys up where it's fair, but in this case I just find the attitude quite disappointing.

Like you said - most people won't care about the change (whether they don't know about churn or want adsl2 anyway)- so therefore it wouldn't hurt to do a bit of good PR for the few that do?

acje writes...

It's on aaNet's sales page, it's in their FAQ's; there is nothing "implied" about it.

This is a cynical, grubby exercise and no amount of quoting T&C's will change that.

Shame on you aaNet!

ummm: also here :> bc.whirlpool.net.au/bc/?...list&type=fc

Broadband Choice » Service Providers » Rapid transfer

Rapid transfer

If you sign up to an ISP that supports rapid transfer, you'll have the freedom of changing to another ISP very quickly, at minimal cost.

The catch? Both the 'sending' and 'receiving' ISP have to participate in the rapid transfer process.

Make rapid transfer a key buying criterion when choosing your ISP. If you sign up to a non rapid transfer ISP, you'll be shelling out full installation fees to change to another one and will have to go without broadband for a while.

In comparison, cost for changing ISPs using rapid transfer is typically lower, and is almost instant.
The following ADSL ISPs support rapid transfer:

aaNet
• ADSL (Bundled)
• ADSL (Unbundled)
• ADSL (KickStart Plans)

whirlpool is a bonus for broadband users,
.

aaGeoff writes...

No, you just have a web page dedicated to explaining it ;)
www.aanet.com.au/churn

Fair hit. :)

it would certainly be a reasonable goodwill gesture to help this guy out?

We would like to help him out, but at this stage we haven't been able to negotiate an agreed manner in which we can do so.

Regards,
John.

acje writes...

This is a cynical, grubby exercise and no amount of quoting T&C's will change that.

What exactly do you think we have done?

Jason Μ writes...

You are still free to transfer to another provider using the SST process

Really? Tell me about how the SST process ($99) compares to fast churn ($40 average, free sometimes). Tell me how I can find another ADSL2 provider who DOESN'T require me to bundle phone products, for $40/month. Major providers only please, I'm not interested in little outfits.

Your solution (SST) is only slightly cheaper than a fresh ADSL install, and in some cases it is more expensive.

It STILL doesn't get around the fact that I want ADSL1.

Russ00 writes...

I would argue that the ability to churn away is a feature that *I* own.

Look, it simply isn't. It's a feature of the Telstra re-seller service that we used to deliver you a broadband service. That was our choice.

We certainly understand that some customers, knowing that we used this Telstra re-seller service with the "fast churn" feature, included that fact in their consideratiosn when choosing us as their ISP.

For this reason we would like to assist any such customers in a reasonable way. We are not obliged to do so, but we would like to do so.

However, what is not reasonable is to put a customer back onto an inferior and more expensive hardware platform so that he may choose to churn to an inferior and more expensive broadband service.

Regards,
John Lane.

Russ00 writes...

It STILL doesn't get around the fact that I want ADSL1.

You may have missed it in the discussion about wording above, what is it about ADSL1 that you want that makes ADSL2 unsuitable - even if you stayed with aaNet, the ADSL2 would be cheaper and most likely faster?

edited typo

aaGeoff writes...

why what is it about ADSL1 that you want that makes ADSL2 unsuitable

I can't assign my phone provider, so I could only use ADSL2 plans that don't require me to "bundle phone products". All of these, at the moment, are way outside my budget. Even if the AANET one is affordable, I am hardly encouraged by the high-handed way they have acted in this case.

I don't have any need for ADSL2 - I am happy at 512/128 line speed. Changing to a faster speed would not noticeably help me, and it would have some negatives. How many times have you been looking for a clip on YouTube, only to find the wrong one several times? At 512/128 speeds, I can stop the download by closing that browser window. At ADSL2 speeds, the entire clip would have downloaded by the time I realised it was a duplicate, so my usage would shoot up, with no advantage to me.

ADSL2, for me, simply means "higher costs", and "inability to churn cheaply".

John Lane writes...

What exactly do you think we have done?

I guess this covers it, John /forum-replies.cfm?t=974528&p=2#r26

In a nutshell you have removed a customers freedom to churn to an isp of his choice.

I'm sure that this is no big deal for you guys but it is another example of aaNet's deceptive nature. Sure, sure, it's written here, or it's not stated there but at times you guys just don't get it.

I left aaNet because I didn't trust aaNet (believe it or not it relates to aaNet's deception during the "throttling" trials).

I had no complaints at all about the service and chances are I would have been a long term customer but you guys really do yourselves a disservice with the "backyard" isp antics you employ from time to time.

John Lane writes...

However, what is not reasonable is to put a customer back onto an inferior and more expensive hardware platform so that he may choose to churn to an inferior and more expensive broadband service.

Hey, if you had let me know you were going to move me to your hardware, before you did it, I would have been gone already.

The "inferior and more expensive broadband service" I was churning to, is cheaper than the plan you were moving me onto. Please explain, how is this "inferior", when it did exactly what I wanted, and costs less?

Russ00 writes...

It STILL doesn't get around the fact that I want ADSL1.

If you can be bothered it's definitely worth demanding compensation from aanet for the cost of a transfer to another ISP and lodging a complaint with the TIO if they don't pay up.

There is no doubt that 'fast transfer' was a feature of the service they sold you, and they now have sneakily removed it.

Top Banana writes...

If you can be bothered it's definitely worth demanding compensation from aanet for the cost of a transfer to another ISP and lodging a complaint with the TIO if they don't pay up.

It's a little harder than that. Not only is there extra cost involved, which AANET may be willing to pay, it's the inconvenience.

From these forums, I gather a complete ADSL disconnect and reconnect would take about a week. During this time, I go without broadband, and without VOIP (I have a DID that people ring me on). I know there are ways around this, but they are all awkward, cost money, and *I* have to learn how to do them, and set them up. I'm a busy person, and I don't have the time.

What I want is for AANET to move me back onto Telstra hardware, so the churn will be quick and easy.

John Lane writes...

However, what is not reasonable is to put a customer back onto an inferior and more expensive hardware platform so that he may choose to churn to an inferior and more expensive broadband service.

Regards,
John Lane.

This amazes me John. Regards for whom? Yourselves? What ever happened to letting people know about something like this? An email for god's sake. One lousy email. I thought I read in your your agreement that anything that decreased the value to the client would require a 21 day notification, which doesn't effect your right to make changes, only how a customer reacts to them and I think this qualifies. It's fantastic that you have your own access multiplexors in some exchanges and people are being moved to these, but this shows there is a down side.
When your statement above is read for what it means it is anti-competitive. ie. We won't put you back onto what WE consider inferior equipment so you can go to one of our competitors even though we caused the extra expense. (Note that I have disregarded your sweeping comment about the competition and yes I do understand that Telstra are the greatest ever a*&eholes of ADSL provision).
When it comes to what is on your website says/implies, as compared to your fine print, you really need to be black and white and in sync. It is dishonest to even imply something is available that is not available or contradicts or is not in the spirit of your fine print. Your website should reflect the current situation before anything else even starts. As part of this, and as a favour, please read the entire website belonging to Aanet, then you will have a good knowledge of what is what so you can put your foot in your mouth more carefully next time.
cheers,
dave.

Is there any intention for aaNet to advise customers before moving them off Telstra equipment onto it's own MSANs?

Every customer has the right to know where their connection terminates if it changes from what they signed up to.

John Lane writes...

what is not reasonable is to put a customer back onto an inferior and more expensive hardware platform

if the customer is still paying the same amount, how does the cost to them matter?

forthe cost savings aanet makes between change over and the anoucing / customer chaning their plan, the customer does not see that money, it goes to aanet. So once again, how is that cost effective for the customer?

so that he may choose to churn to an inferior and more expensive broadband service.

HA

how is the behaviour or want or needs of a customer suitable for the ISP to act like a parent about? It is up to the customer to choose what they see as best value and for some adsl1 is the better value.

This path is smelling like iPrumis and their use of hardware. treat people like they are on adsl2, but offer adsl1 speeds at telstra wholesale prices. end result of saving money for the ISP, stuffing over the customer you joined under a given assumption (ie: have churns available if something changed in their situation).

and before someone comes up with a reason why they would move to a more expencive plan, they might get a job where they pay for 80% of the internet costs, but only if they are with a given company recommended ISP.

As said above, some customers might not care, ones that churned into aanet would be more likly to care about having it removed.

Russ00 writes...

Hey, if you had let me know you were going to move me to your hardware, before you did it, I would have been gone already.

I have said elsewhere that we would have done this if we had the resources. We simply could not do it without seriously affecting support levels.

The "inferior and more expensive broadband service" I was churning to, is cheaper than the plan you were moving me onto. Please explain, how is this "inferior", when it did exactly what I wanted, and costs less?

I understand.

Regards,
John Lane.

Top Banana writes...

There is no doubt that 'fast transfer' was a feature of the service they sold you

That's ridiculous. The last thing we would do is promote the fact that a customer can leave easily and cheaply.

Regards,
John Lane.

Edit: typo

It would be interesting to see what happens if a customer on Telstra Homeline Budget gets moved over to non Telstra dslam.

Atleast you could never move me, I am on a full exchange with only TW ports!

Jason Μ writes...

ADSL2 plans, for existing customers, will be released shortly

I hope it will be good and if your proposed ADSL2+ 20gb plan for $49.95 I'll sign up right away. Will be I enter to new contract when I move from ADSL to ADSL2+? I still got 4 months to go under current contract so is there any exit fee? And also any start up fee from existing ADSL aaNet customers?

dabatpad writes...

It would be interesting to see what happens if a customer on Telstra Homeline Budget gets moved over to non Telstra dslam.

Jason answered this on page 1 - apparently it doesn't make a difference on SSS

camel123 writes...

Is there any intention for aaNet to advise customers before moving them off Telstra equipment onto it's own MSANs?

Not at present. If we can get customer service levels back to normal we can look at it again.

Every customer has the right to know where their connection terminates

That's precisely what they do not have any right to.

What I agree with is that we need to indicate (and Broadband Choice needs to indicate also) that there is now a third alternative:

1. The ISP is not a member of the Telstra fast churn process
2. The ISP is a member of the Telstra fast churn process
3. The ISP has its own hardware and therefore some customers have access to the Telstra fast churn process and some do not

The question is not one of "rights." It is purely one of customer expectation. What we do not want is a situation where customers have an expectation which is false. We fully agree with those who have made this point, although we maintain that any suggestion that we have set out to deceive is not only false, but a low and unworthy allegation.

Regards,
John Lane.

dabatpad writes...

It would be interesting to see what happens if a customer on Telstra Homeline Budget gets moved over to non Telstra dslam.

interesting also is Telstra Pensioner Discounts on phone services,

Atleast you could never move me, I am on a full exchange with only TW ports!

i got lots of isp's sevicing my exchange with their dslam & adsl2+
but i am sticking to adsl1 ports,
.
edit: reason for sticking to adsl1 ports:>
to retain my telstra phone & services supplied via telstra,
.

greenhawk writes...

This path is smelling like iPrumis and their use of hardware.

My sentiments exactly. I recall reading about that when I joined Whirlpool where iPrimus used the "you allow us to act as your agent" quite in their contract/SFoA... what can I say, it was quite absorbing reading. Since then, anybody who's come to me asking how iPrimus are as an ISP, I would tell them to look elsewhere. And people take referal advice (for or against) very seriously. Now I see aaNet behaving in roughly the same manner, I will be monitoring this thread very closely, for myself, and for any future referrals I may make for aaNet. If I find aaNet have reduced the feature set of my overall internet service (through the lifecycle of the service, which includes exiting) without notice, I'll be raising hell over it.

aaNet=hubris?

bellweather writes...

aaNet=hubris?

had to google that :> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubris

interesting,
.

If you are put onto an aaNet MSAN you will very soon have the ability to sign up to their ADSL2+ plans.

Hows is this a bad thing?? Surely aaNet's ADSL2+ plans will be better value than any other ADSL1 providers plans, why would you need to churn away??

qtr pounder writes...

Hows is this a bad thing??

See here : /forum-replies.cfm?t=974528&p=2#r29

For the most part, you can't argue with that. For some people, ADSL1 is a better option - at least for the moment

Perhaps by not notifying the customer before they were moved. They could have been churing to another providor just like the op of this topic.

Perhaps more communication of what was happening would have avoided this issue.

John Lane writes...

What we do not want is a situation where customers have an expectation which is false. We fully agree with those who have made this point, although we maintain that any suggestion that we have set out to deceive is not only false, but a low and unworthy allegation.

Hmm, ok the choices are:-

1. aaNet didn't realise the impact on adsl1 customers = inept

2. aaNet realised the impact but didn't think those customers were worthwhile notifying = arrogance

3. aaNet realised the impact but thought they'd get away with it = deceptive

My guess it that it was discussed, the negatives outweighed the positives (for aaNet) and it was decided to "see how it goes".

I'd suggest, not so well.

I understand that from a company pov you have to make out it's no big deal and you've (aaNet)acted responsibly and so on (and you can always fall back on the T&Cs).

It's always a big deal when you don't correct your customers widely held perceptions or "expectations".

Jeez, if it was any other company we'd say it was deceitful.

You could imagine the uproar if Telstra pulled this stunt.

edit: change "deceit" to "deceptive"

aaGeoff writes...

For the most part, you can't argue with that.

The home phone argument is invalid. I believe aaNet's ADSL2+ service wont require bundling.

As for the speed, well i guess it just depends on the individuals use of the Internet. I would not have a problem with the increase of speed. Others may...

acje writes...

2. aaNet realised the impact but didn't think those customers were worthwhile notifying = arrogance

/forum-replies.cfm?t=974528&p=2#r37

acje writes...

You could imagine the uproar if Telstra pulled this stunt.

It is because Telstra has not signed up to the SS Transfer process that there is a problem here.

Russ00 writes...

It's a little harder than that. Not only is there extra cost involved, which AANET may be willing to pay, it's the inconvenience.

You have to put a (reasonable) price on the 'inconvenience' and demand compensation. If they refuse then you go to the TIO. The important thing is that you justify what you are asking for.

Top Banana writes...

If they refuse then you go to the TIO.

I doubt there is anything the TIO would be able to do in this instance. The TIO cant tell the provider how to (physically) deliver the service.

qtr pounder writes...

/forum-replies.cfm?t=974528&p=2#r37

It is because Telstra has not signed up to the SS Transfer process that there is a problem here.

I read the quoted post the first time around.

We hear quite often how aaNet are struggling because of workload, staff shortages, staff in training, hardware failures etc etc.
They could always do what other companies do... hire some temps.
It ain't brain surgery. Why would customers need to take into consideration what aaNet are up to? If they can't plan "what" and "when" as far as their business goes then it needs a shakeup.

The problem here is not of Telstra's doing. aaNet is/was aware of T's position thoughout this deal.
How can Tesltra be blamed for poor planning/execution by aaNet?

The problem is the lack of communication by aaNet to customers potentially affected by these changes.
We can make up our own mind as to why there was no communication.

acje writes...

The problem is the lack of communication by aaNet to customers potentially affected by these changes.

These changes will only affect customers on an MSAN who wish to churn to a Telstra based ADSL1 service or to a non SS Transfer participating ADSL2+ service.

In the grand scheme of things I would think this would be a relatively small number of customers.

John Lane writes...

That's ridiculous. The last thing we would do is promote the fact that a customer can leave easily and cheaply.

You guys have openly advertised support for 'fast transfer' for a long time. Now you are surreptitiously trying to make it 'fast transfer' in to aanet but expensive transfer away.

This is the shonkiest practice you guys have perpetrated to date. Do you really think you can get away with it?

acje writes...

My guess it that it was discussed, the negatives outweighed the positives (for aaNet) and it was decided to "see how it goes".

I'd suggest, not so well.

Bad guess. We already stated exactly what happened.

And the impact has been minimal. The present case is one which festered because we have been too busy to respond quickly.

Regards,
John Lane.

Top Banana writes...

This is the shonkiest practice you guys have perpetrated to date.

TB, if we did anything that you didn't regard as bad, poor value, or fattening, I would have the guys check and see what we were doing wrong. :)

Cheers,
John Lane.

qtr pounder writes...

I doubt there is anything the TIO would be able to do in this instance. The TIO cant tell the provider how to (physically) deliver the service.

It's not about telling anyone how to deliver the service. It's about telling companies to deliver what they sold and punishing companies that engage in devious business practices.

If aanet wants to move customers to their DSLAM they must either honour the 'fast transfer' process, or get a customer's permission to be locked in to service that will be expensive and disruptive to change.

What a dodgy move. I encourage all effected to lodge complaints with the TIO. I know I will for my service. Make aaNet pay.

dabatpad writes...

Perhaps more communication of what was happening would have avoided this issue.

seems like this important customer post got not noticed,

?

blue . writes...

I know I will for my service.

Do you even want to churn away??

qtr pounder writes...

In the grand scheme of things I would think this would be a relatively small number of customers.

Exactly, which is why it has had so liitle impact on other infrastructure-builders who paved the way in this regard.

Regards,
John Lane.

viŽitor writes...

seems like this important post got not noticed,

?

/forum-replies.cfm?t=974528&p=2#r37

Top Banana writes...

deliver what they sold

AFAIK aaNet never sold "ability to fast churn away" as part of the package.

Had the resources to have customers moved onto new hardware, but none to advise the customer of this happening?

John Lane writes...

Bad guess. We already stated exactly what happened.

Thanks John but with all due respect I'll run with my guess.

dabatpad writes...

Had the resources to have customers moved onto new hardware, but none to advise the customer of this happening?

I think it was more to do with not having enough resources to deal with any additional queries this sort of announcement would create.

qtr pounder writes...

In the grand scheme of things I would think this would be a relatively small number of customers.

...and the numbers excuse it?

To my way of thinking there are business principles that are worth abiding by.

Remember the old fashioned "Mission Statement"?
Became quite unpopular during the greedy '90's.

Our only hope as consumers is that it makes a comeback ;)

acje writes...

Thanks John but with all due respect I'll run with my guess.

Go for it. And my guess is that you don't care whether it is true or not - it suits your agenda.

Cheers,
John Lane

Wow, well, I can't believe this thread.

Just finished reading through it and I cannot believe the aaNet reps responses.

I would be going to the TIO.

I am doubly glad now that I have churned away, especially before they have completed building my exchange. I know I never thought I wouldn't of been able to churn away from the adsl 1 service.

acje writes...

...and the numbers excuse it?

OK, please try and understand this. I don't think it is that hard to grasp.

If we emailed every customer, many of them would have contacted us for various reasons, including that they didn't understand and were worried about an outage etc. We don't have the resources at present to deal with those without seriously affecting service levels.

But since we didn't email the customers, a very small number have been negatively affected.

So, we could affect lots of people, or a few people.

And we said it up front, right here on Whirlpool, and gave the reason why. So it wasn't "deception" and if it was, it was the kind that you tell about up front. Whatever that kind is.

Cheers,
John Lane.

qtr pounder writes...

Surely aaNet's ADSL2+ plans will be better value than any other ADSL1 providers plans,

you would sure hope so, otherwise aanet now has a captive audience that can not change away easily in protest.

add to that if the customer does not change plans (or is not informed about the change of their line service to new hardware), they will still be paying the older and likly higher telstra port costs. The difference is bonus profit for aanet and co. I wonder if the notification letter will be "slow" in getting out so there would be even more months of this bonus profit.

qtr pounder writes...

I would not have a problem with the increase of speed. Others may...

I do not have issues with speed, I have issues with data value and flexability of service.

though for now I am on a exchange that does not have aanet hardware unless they move onto optus or soul/tpg hardware in the near future.

In that case, then I sure as hell would want to be told in advance about this as it is one of the decisions /facts I use when selecting a new ISP.

guess from now on I will have to keep a close watch to news about aanet either enabling (unlikly) or using oputs or soul/tpg and then change ASAP, espically if this is the way they want to play ball

qtr pounder writes...

In the grand scheme of things I would think this would be a relatively small number of customers.

HA,

so it only effects the people that want to leave?

I get the feeling someone likes to play with words as only effecting people that want to leave sounds like a large number of the people that want to leave (for what ever reason).

greenhawk writes...

you would sure hope so, otherwise aanet now has a captive audience that can not change away easily in protest.

That is not correct.

The entire landscape is changing. There are now a whole raft of possible configurations for DSL broadband.

1. Telstra ADSL1
2. Telstra ADSL2+
3. Non-Telstra LSS-based ADSL1 & ADSL2+
4. Non-Telstra ULL-based ADSL2+ (with or without a PSTN service)

There are two "fast churn" processes - one for Telstra ADSL1 services and one for Non-Telstra LSS-based ADSL1 & ADSL2+ services. Telstra Bigpond (and therefore Telstra Wholesale ADSL1) is a member participant of the first of these, but not of the second. EFTel (and aaNet) is a member of both.

A customer whose service is delivered via non-Telstra LSS-based ADSL1 or ADSL2+ can fast churn to any other LSS-based service. If Telstra Bigpond would join the churn process, these customers could churn to any Telstra ADSL1 service also, but since this is not the case, this avenue is not available, and instead the customer is forced to disconnect and re-connect to Telstra if they wish to move to a Telstra ADSL1 service.

Now, that's the case in a nutshell.

The dispute here is over the fact that aaNet has not notified its customers in advance of the fact that it is now using its own infrastructure (Non-Telstra LSS-based ADSL1 & ADSL2+), and as a result those customers who wish to churn to Telstra cannot do so without an increased cost and some inconvenience.

Regards,
John Lane.

Now, what we have to consider is the value of writing all of the above out in the simplest possible terms and sending it to all customers. This seems to us to be counter-productive. It is more efficient to deal with the few exceptional cases instead (and to wear the aggressiveness here).

Regards,
John Lane.

John Lane writes...

Now, what we have to consider is the value of writing all of the above out in the simplest possible terms and sending it to all customers.

I think it would be very valuable... show people that you are keeping them updated and give them the chance to opt-out/leave if they don't like it. But you don't need to send it to all customers, just the ones that are affected and when it happens on their exchange. It would also give you an opportunity to promote your upcoming ADSL2/VDSL services.

blue . writes...

What a dodgy move. I encourage all effected to lodge complaints with the TIO. I know I will for my service. Make aaNet pay.

It may not seem right but you will get nowhere with the TIO.
Plenty of other isp's do this.

John Lane writes...

The entire landscape is changing. There are now a whole raft of possible configurations for DSL broadband.

1. Telstra ADSL1
2. Telstra ADSL2+
3. Non-Telstra LSS-based ADSL1 & ADSL2+
4. Non-Telstra ULL-based ADSL2+ (with or without a PSTN service)

There are two "fast churn" processes - one for Telstra ADSL1 services and one for Non-Telstra LSS-based ADSL1 & ADSL2+ services. Telstra Bigpond (and therefore Telstra Wholesale ADSL1) is a member participant of the first of these, but not of the second. EFTel (and aaNet) is a member of both.

A customer whose service is delivered via non-Telstra LSS-based ADSL1 or ADSL2+ can fast churn to any other LSS-based service. If Telstra Bigpond would join the churn process, these customers could churn to any Telstra ADSL1 service also, but since this is not the case, this avenue is not available, and instead the customer is forced to disconnect and re-connect to Telstra if they wish to move to a Telstra ADSL1 service.

Now, that's the case in a nutshell.

John, I think that is a nice and simple explanation of what is going on (and without any aggravation in either direction).

I have a suggestion: You have produced lists/maps for your stage 1 & 2 MASN roll out. And I'm sure that you will do so for future stages (including dates). Could you attach a similar explanation (as above) somewhere to those stage explanations, so that people are made aware that this may happen to them once their exchange is changed over? That would also give them a timeframe as to by when they would have to churn away (if they so choose) so as not to be affected by a loss of fast churn ability to "Telstra ADSL-1".

And maybe you could also find a place on the aaNet website, in a more general area, to make this sort of thing known.

There will still/always be people that won't see either notice, but at least all the helpful people on these forums could point some of the "helpless" ones to the relevant webpage.

As I said, just a suggestion, and please nobody jump down my throat, I emphasise with both sides of the argument to a certain degree.

Cheers

homersmithson writes...

It may not seem right but you will get nowhere with the TIO.

Why not? Some aaNet customers will now have to pay a whole lot more to leave aaNet.

Why should they have to foot the bill for something they had no say in, no notice of and no control over?

I believe the TIO would be interested in helping those financially disadvantaged by aaNets actions.

Obviously the issue should be discussed with aaNet before resorting to the TIO.

John Lane writes...

OK, please try and understand this. I don't think it is that hard to grasp.

Thanks John, your superior attitude no doubt works a treat with children, the infirm, and subservient employees. It impresses me not at all and IMO diminishes the writer.

Please don't use it with me.

John Lane writes...

Go for it. And my guess is that you don't care whether it is true or not - it suits your agenda.

Well, let's not pussyfoot around, John. You've half made a charge, at least have the decency to fill in the gaps as you see them.

I'm old enough and ugly enough to answer the charge ;)

acje writes...

Well, let's not pussyfoot around, John. You've half made a charge, at least have the decency to fill in the gaps as you see them.

Actually, you've made a charge. You've accused us of acting deceitfully and then lying about it afterwards.

In fact, we said what we were doing in advance, explained why we would not be writing to all our customers, and then defended our actions afterwards.

I conclude that you are:
a) Smart enough to see the truth
b) Insufficiently decent to grant us the benefit of any doubt
c) Of ill-will for some unexplained reason.

I am sorry that I sound superior.

John Lane writes...

In fact, we said what we were doing in advance, explained why we would not be writing to all our customers, and then defended our actions afterwards.

I'm happy to address your previous reply inc your conclusions but for now I cannot find where you have said what you are doing "in advance".

Can you please assist?

I am sorry that I sound superior.

You don't :)

Rather than wade through 5 pages of bickering, can someone fill me in on Russ00s (OP) outcome.

And from what I gather, this scenario will only affect those exchanges where AAnet are installing their own equipment?

Reading this thread, I am astounded that the thread has delved into a bickering match between the aa reps and the OP and his supporters. Most of you know when that happens, the thread gets closed.

b) aaNet had no right to do this - I agree with the OP. At the very least, customers should have been sent an email 30 days in advance informing them of what was happening (from a no-reply email address) and offering them a form they could mail into aanet to be excluded from this change. I understand that it's cheaper for aaNet to have customers on it's own equipment, but it needs to inform its customers if it is going to alter the service they are paying for.

On the other hand, I can see why it was done, but it is no excuse for not informing customers of what you are doing - altering a service they are paying for. They wouldn't continue paying for the service if they did not want it to stay as it was.

Really aaNet, I think you need to take a loooong look at yourselves. You are going to lose your good reputation if you do go around doing things like this without informing customers. Even just a sticky thread in your forum would have been a good idea - and you can't argue that's not hard to do!

Phew. What a mouthful! :)

Matt

≤ Matt ≥ writes...

Even just a sticky thread in your forum would have been a good idea

Actually, that's an excellent suggestion. We'll do that.

Regards,
John Lane.

acje writes...

I'm happy to address your previous reply inc your conclusions but for now I cannot find where you have said what you are doing "in advance".

We said that we would not send out an email informing the customers, and we explained why. It was on WP a week or two ago. Please don't ask me to find it for you.

Regards,
John Lane.

John Lane writes...

Actually, that's an excellent suggestion. We'll do that.

Certainly do it, but don't stop there as most people don't read forums until they have some sort of problem that they need help with

John Lane writes...

We said that we would not send out an email informing the customers, and we explained why. It was on WP a week or two ago. Please don't ask me to find it for you.

John, I have looked back through your posts for the last 2 weeks and I can NOT find any announcement about the forced transfer of ADSL1 customers to eftel hardware. There was a post on the 1st of May defending the lack of notification, but nothing actually ANNOUNCING it BEFORE you did it. I would be happy to be proved wrong, but I can't find it; I am sure you're wouldn't lie about this so blatantly.

(Not that it really impacts on me I churned to TPG ADSL2 a bit over a week ago)

Tank.

John Lane writes...

Actually, that's an excellent suggestion. We'll do that.

Ask one of the mods to make one on WP as well.

If you do, you may want to make sure the mod closes it!

I have read the whole thread but admit I am still a little unsure of how this might impact me.

Does this affect a customer on ADSL1 connected via a RIM? If I am still on Telstra HW, does that mean I can still Fast Churn? Could it affect me in the future?

Regards,

Daryl

tank writes...

John, I have looked back through your posts for the last 2 weeks and I can NOT find any announcement about the forced transfer of ADSL1 customers to eftel hardware.

/forum-replies.cfm?t=963...268410#r15268410