I've seen a few posts on the forums now suggesting that 3 is in a little bit of poo with Telstra over its customers roaming onto Telstra's network.

Apparently, so the scuttlebutt has it, 3 hasn't been paying the bills from Telstra for allowing its customers to roam, and I hear that Telstra is none to impressed.

Does anyone have more information about this? If 3 cancel their Telstra roaming, then I'll be cancelling my 3 service. Their metro coverage is a bit patchy, and the infill provided by Telstra GSM is vital. Without that .. and without EDGE speeds when roaming .. this could be a big problem.

Please share the info if you've got it.

My wife is with 3 mobile (roaming on Telstra)because we are in the southern highlands (well outside 3 coverage)

dont ask me how she got the service :)

But anyway is this true about the telstra agreement with 3 going to end?

There's been whispers going around about it, but don't think anything official has been mentioned.

Would probably kill 3. From what I can gather they are loosing vast amounts of money as it is, so without Telstra's fill-in coverage they'd probably loose a heap of business.

Probably smart on Telstra's behalf now, they don't really need 3 for anything and if 3 aren't paying the roaming charges then why keep them around.

Gus Tinkle writes...

they don't really need 3 for anything
There are still many Telstra customers contracted with UMTS 2100 handsets.

Fast Ethernet writes...

There are still many Telstra customers contracted with UMTS 2100 handsets.

Yeh good point I guess. They could do some CDMA to NG like thing were they waive the end of the contract and upgrade everyone FOC, or they could just get rid of UMTS2100, people probably wouldn't even notice.

Chris Ransom writes...

so the scuttlebutt has it, 3 hasn't been paying the bills from Telstra for allowing its customers to roam

LOL

anyone have more information about this?

Whisper is the complete opposite - use your imagination

Well its been suggested before that this would be the way for Telstra to get a hold of 100% of 3/Telstra's 2100 MHZ network. If 3 loses access to Telstra's GSM once your outside the city you have nothing. That GSM will also of course get weaker and become less reliable as Telstra reduces it in order to give its NextG network more capacity. So even if they do not fall out GSM service for 3 customers will be geeting lesser all the time. 3 Could service if the entered an agreement with Voda or Optus. Prior to going with Telstra they did non- metropolitan with Vodafone.

VoIP.ed (mr.wireless) writes...

Whisper is the complete opposite - use your imagination

That Telstra hasn't been paying 3 for the 3GIS services? That seems less likely though, surely, because Telstra owns 50% of it?

Dunno.

My concern is that 3's service without Telstra roaming would suck arse. I vaguely recall Vodafone roaming with 3, and that really wasn't good.

Voiped, if you know more, please share :-)

Chris Ransom writes...

if you know more, please share :-)

Happy too, when its not scuttlebutt {:-)

Chris Ransom writes...

I vaguely recall Vodafone roaming with 3, and that really wasn't good.

That's the big stickler. For the 3 network to operate without having its own GSM network behind it, it must have a roaming agreement that makes 99% of people 99% happy 99% of the time.

When 3 were roaming with Voda, there were a lot of unhappy people, and percentage wise a lot more than those who are currently not impressed with 3's agreement with Telstra.

Those of us who have been with the network since its early days are more than thankful of the Telstra roaming agreement.

Chris Ransom writes...

Apparently, so the scuttlebutt has it, 3 hasn't been paying the bills from Telstra for allowing its customers to roam, and I hear that Telstra is none to impressed.

Because this sort of information is just thrown about for people to use on forums and so on. No need to mention it to somewhere like the ASX to protect shareholders, we'll just let people without confidentiality agreements know.

Seriously....

Timpa writes...

Seriously....

Look, your post makes sense, but rumours do have a legitimate place - the iPhone was rumoured for ages before it was eventually released, and the rumours were quite accurate (in hindsight). There are rumours that this relationship between 3 and Telstra is at risk - is that not a discussion-worthy topic?

Gus Tinkle writes...

Would probably kill 3. From what I can gather they are loosing vast amounts of money as it is

Have you attempted to gather anything or just listened to the opinions of some mobile phone experts on the internet?

My suggestion would be something like the Hutchison Telecommunications Annual report.
Look at the total gain or loss for the year.
They've gone from a total loss of hundreds of millions of dollars to only a few million.
The important is NOT that it's a loss.
It's the difference between the year before last, and last year.

Because in case you didn't notice, they spent a lot of money building the 3 network. A lot of money. And unlike Telstra or Optus or Voda, they didnt have millions of customers to foot the bill, they started with nobody.

They are losing a lot of money :(
But the amount they lost each year is getting less and less, and as they add more customers, and pay off the original network, that is going to very suddenly equal a whole lot of profit.

Timpa writes...

My suggestion would be something like the Hutchison Telecommunications Annual report.

Which shows losses in '05 of 547m, '06 of 759m, and '07 of 285m .. its not much of a trend but if its repeated again next year, then perhaps they'll be on a good thing.

That's an improvement of close to 500 million dollars..... which if repeated puts them in front by 200 million.

Timpa writes...

if

$500m is a big if. Telstra pulling out of GSM roaming would dent that - although that seems less likely. I think 3's biggest threat would be other networks increasing their coverage on plans with comparable cost - and both Voda and Optus have indicated they are planning to do precisely that.

I.e. it will become a case of why have 3 for good cap plans and 3G coverage in major capitals and GSM everywhere else when you can go to one of the three other competitors and get (by the end of next year) 96% population coverage of 3G/HSDPA.

I hope 3 innovate .. or their limited coverage is going to be a thorn in its side.

Timpa writes...

That's an improvement of close to 500 million dollars..... which if repeated puts them in front by 200 million.

That's assuming that it's a $500m increase in revenue, not a $500m decrease in costs, like say, a reduction in the amount spent on increasing and improving the 3 network. If it's a $500m improvement in revenue that's a great thing, but if it's Hutch desperately trying to wring some profit out it's investment by cutting the money it invests in 3 Australia that's a bad thing for 3s future. Of course, it's probably a combination of both, which muddies the water somewhat.

What factor might 3s 850 spectrum play? Would Telstra be interested in this, thus giving it an interest in playing nice with 3? After all, 3 don't really need it, and may not be able to do anything with it, so it may make sense for 3 to off load to Telstra, as part of a renewed roaming agreement?

Timpa writes...

Have you attempted to gather anything or just listened to the opinions of some mobile phone experts on the internet?

Meh, probably more the latter.

I thought I read in a magazine while waiting at the doctors the other day that 3 was loosing a heap of money. It had a BRW richlist or something, listed them as having lost $600 million odd. Perhaps it was an old magazine, wasn't paying too much attention to it.

My suggestion would be something like the Hutchison Telecommunications Annual report.
Look at the total gain or loss for the year.

Ok will look into it (although I think someone has since posted the rough amounts) before posting again.

Thank you for pointing it out.

Perhaps someone can help me out -- I haven't seen a source that says Three is possibly going to lose roaming with Telstra GSM.

Can anyone point me to something credible that might suggest there's issues with Three and Telstra?

I don't recall any ASX announcements concerning it, so it seems as though this is just a rumour?

Fast Ethernet writes...

Perhaps someone can help me out -- I haven't seen a source that says Three is possibly going to lose roaming with Telstra GSM.

yeah its total bollocks

anyone point me to something credible

NO

if three loses telstra roaming, my n95 will turn into a (rather expensive) paper weight

if three loses roaming, that would actually benefit me because my phone keeps transmitting itself to telstra's signal because its stronger even though its receiving a three signal. its annoying me because i cant get into planet three (i have 2 use lite). But if three did lose telstra, that would be a problem because there wouldnt be coverage in the nearby suburbs since i live close to the 'edge of coverage'.

ronzo1 writes...

if three loses roaming, that would actually benefit me because my phone keeps transmitting itself to telstra's signal because its stronger even though its receiving a three signal. its annoying me because i cant get into planet three (i have 2 use lite). But if three did lose telstra, that would be a problem because there wouldnt be coverage in the nearby suburbs since i live close to the 'edge of coverage'.

I am in a similar situation. Being literally half a km from the edge of the Broadband zone, I can get either full strength Roaming or 2 bars of 3G depending on where I am in my house. It's a real pain, and I don't think there are plans to extend the 3G coverage zone (from the Telstra side of things anyway).

Three will be roaming on Vodafone by the end of the year. It will not be GSM roaming...

iConfused writes...

Three will be roaming on Vodafone by the end of the year. It will not be GSM roaming...

... and you know that how?

iConfused writes...

Three will be roaming on Vodafone by the end of the year. It will not be GSM roaming...

Vodafone's footprint has not improved that much since their roaming agreement ended a few years back. There would be no logical reason for this change to occur. It doesn't make financial sence or technological sence.

HRS408860 iConfused writes...

Three will be roaming on Vodafone by the end of the year. It will not be GSM roaming...

I heard the same yesterday evening from a sales rep.

Interesting times ahead.

sonic087 writes...

I heard the same yesterday evening from a sales rep.

<sarcasm>

Yes, Sales Reps would definately know this information before it's announced to the general market and to shareholders.... You should definately take it as gospel....

</sarcasm>

FriendOrFoe writes...

<sarcasm>

While that is an entirely appropriate response, if 3 is planning on roaming on Vodafone 3G .. and if Vodafone 3G actually increase their footprint and use UMTS 2100, then this could be a good deal for 3 customers.

I stress _could_ be a good deal .. equally, it could be a death knell.

Not good news for Tassie if its true. No 3 here at all and I constantly roam on Telstra!

ronzo1 writes...

if three loses roaming, that would actually benefit me because my phone keeps transmitting itself to telstra's signal because its stronger even though its receiving a three signal.

you should be able to lock your phone to the 3G signal.

from what i understand, most 3-branded mobiles don't let you lock to GSM, but Dual or 3G modes are fine.

for Nokia's, it's under Settings > Phone > Network > Network Mode

If they go back to roaming on Vodafone will it be Vodafone's 3G 2100/900 MHZ or will it be Vodafone GSM ? Is Vodafone decommissioning its GSM after its 3G upgrade is completed? I note that the phones presently on offer via Three have the 850MHZ band (Telstra) on them (Ref 6120) so it will be another phone upgrade for you if you are wanting the regional service and the Vodafone GSM goes by the board. A lot of things to consider as it seems there are ways and means to make people change their handsets every 2-3 years!
When 3 roamed on Vodafone before I found it quite good for the areas that I traveled in as Vodafones major highway coverage is excellent. One thing that intrigues me though is how will the joint ownership by Teltsra and Three of the metropolitan 2100mHZ system go under this kind of setup. Will Telstra eventually own it all or will Three take it back and Telstra use only its 850MHz Next G network in metro areas. In my experience that would be a disaster as 850 still struggles with an immense amount of blackspots in the metro area.

always on mute writes...

note that the phones presently on offer via Three have the 850MHZ band (Telstra) on them

Yeah a few have noticed ??

VoIP.ed (mr.wireless) writes...

yeah its total bollocks

So what happens when Telstra pull down their GSM network by 2010-2012 ?

That's only 2-3 years away.

I am very sure Telstra will not let 3 onto their Next G network and I am sure that anyone will agree on that!

DTS writes...

I am very sure Telstra will not let 3 onto their Next G network and I am sure that anyone will agree on that!

Maybe "I" and "anyone" will be wrong.

DTS writes...

So what happens when Telstra pull down their GSM network by 2010-2012 ?

That's only 2-3 years away.

Actually it's 2-4, but I'll forgive your math...

DTS writes...

I am very sure Telstra will not let 3 onto their Next G network and I am sure that anyone will agree on that!

What about the 850mhz spectrum that Three now own - if they gave this to Telstra as part of a roaming deal on Next G it would give Telstra even more capacity at 850mhz, which would surely be worth it for them.

Another thought I had with Telstra shutting down GSM is what will they do about people from Europe roaming here? Europeans are likely to have 2100/900 phones and so this will mean Telstra will miss out on revenue from roaming in a lot of areas. So maybe they'll expand 2100mhz coverage when they shut down GSM to get roaming revenue and also to have a dualband network. I'm probably totally wrong, but just a couple of thoughts.

ShaunDXB writes...

I am in a similar situation. Being literally half a km from the edge of the Broadband zone, I can get either full strength Roaming or 2 bars of 3G depending on where I am in my house. It's a real pain, and I don't think there are plans to extend the 3G coverage zone (from the Telstra side of things anyway).

I kind've have the opposite issue. I get 1 or 2 (max of 3 if I'm in the right spot) bars of 3G reception here (I have no idea where it comes from, the broadband zone ends 5+ km away), so I usually go into networks and go to Roaming before I make/expect a call, as I've had a few drops outs. It rarely seems to find roaming by itself, except when there's literally no Three reception.

So I hope the Telstra roaming agreement continues, because if not.. well, I'm shit out of luck ;) (*watches Three reception drop to 0 bars*).

FriendOrFoe writes...

Actually it's 2-4, but I'll forgive your math...

:) Why thank you, I was going to edit and correct it but MEH

hughiemac writes...

What about the 850mhz spectrum that Three now own - if they gave this to Telstra as part of a roaming deal on Next G it would give Telstra even more capacity at 850mhz, which would surely be worth it for them.

Possibly :)

Europeans are likely to have 2100/900 phones and so this will mean Telstra will miss out on revenue from roaming in a lot of areas.

That is a problem for now, but most handsets coming out will be capable of most frequenecies in a few years. At the moment its not possible

So maybe they'll expand 2100mhz coverage when they shut down GSM to get roaming revenue

No to this one, they will want to close down their 2100mhz network and just have UMTS 850

always on mute writes...

Telstra eventually own it all or will Three take it back

Three can't just 'take it back' with out paying hundreds of millions, and I don't think they will do that.

FriendOrFoe writes...

<sarcasm>

Yes, Sales Reps would definately know this information before it's announced to the general market and to shareholders.... You should definately take it as gospel....

</sarcasm>

Anything that makes a sale is "gospel" to a salesman :(

well i asked a few mates about this topic who work for 3(not just sales reps). and as far as they are aware that three arnt changing and there are talks about better deals.

talks of plans of getting broadband deals while on the telstra network. i think they mean plans while roaming(although i wish it meant next g). i dont think its intended for people that live in roaming areas. but so on the odd chance you can use it if you travel in that area.

so by the sounds of things nothing is changing. i dont no about the payment but i really doubt they will get cutoff.

Again the facts:

Telstra will close their GSM network between 2010 and 2012

With NEXT G being a great netowork, do you really think Telstra will wholesale it off ?

DTS writes...

do you really think Telstra will wholesale it off ?
Telstra has said they have absolutely no intention of wholesaling it. There's really no point for Telstra to wholesale it when they're the only one to cover the areas NextG covers.

Getting back on topic -- I think the only reselling will be of Optus/Vodafone's 3G network. Which will be interesting when Telstra won't give Three any more network coverage, yet Optus will have considerably more UMTS 2100 coverage, and will be willing to wholesale.

What happens to 3GIS then?

damo81 writes...

dont ask me how she got the service :)

you no longer need to live in the 3 coverage area. they even have resellers outside now. you just pay the penalty for roaming data and on prepaid there are no FREE Talk on 3 calls.

always on mute writes...

3 Could service if the entered an agreement with Voda or Optus. Prior to going with Telstra they did non- metropolitan with Vodafone.

The new Vodafone and Optus 3G networks are a better alternative for roaming than Telstra's EDGE network.

Telstra has said they won't wholesale nextG. Hutchison has said they were interested in roaming onto it.

Vodafone and Optus have said they will wholesale their 3G networks.

Hutchison will switch to Vodafone or Optus.
Three will lower the prices of roaming data.
The will operate at HSPA speeds everywhere covered.
The coverage area will be similar to (Vodafone) or larger (Optus) than Telstra's EDGE network!

It's mushy peas writes...

What factor might 3s 850 spectrum play?

They may use it for LTE, depending what is going to happen with the spectrum licenses when they expire.