Today I logged into my toolbox to find out why I had been shaped. It appears that iiNet has changed my plan from a Business 5 with 60/60 GB Peak/Offpeak, to 100GB Anytime without notifying me.

As a result my business account has been shaped both on and offpeak, leaving my connection barely usable until my quota resets on the 10th.

iiNet provided no notice of the change, as is required by them under their own CRA agreement. Now if I want the same level of service as before, I will have to spend an additional $140 per month - almost twice what I have been paying.

When I called support to query this, they told me there was nothing I could do about it, and when I said I wanted to lodge a complaint they were unwilling to assist me.

WTF iiNet? This is totally unacceptable and unless you are able to restore my service to its prior state I will be cancelling my account and no longer recommending what has otherwise been an awesome product to my clients.

Phobia writes...

When I called support to query this, they told me there was nothing I could do about it, and when I said I wanted to lodge a complaint they were unwilling to assist me.

Did you call through to regular customer support or the iiBusiness team?

Seems strange that you weren't notified - if you want to email me your iiNet username (see my profile for my details) i'll pass it through to the business team to get in touch and discuss it with you.

Michael Davis writes...

Did you call through to regular customer support or the iiBusiness team?

I called the business support line but got hung up on while waiting on hold. It is possible that this happened at exactly 9pm.

Seems strange that you weren't notified

Not the only one :(

Quote form my other tread (which may as well be closed)
I just noticed that I my plan has been forced from the old "Business 3" bundled plan to the new "Business 3" plan.

Instead of getting 20 + 40 gig quotas, I now have a flat 50 gig quota. They have also removed any increased value for anyone who has bundled a VoIP account.

Has anyone else seen this? Is there a reason that there was no option of remaining on the old spec'd plan? Are iiNet going to contact any of the customers who aren't using their VoIP service and tell then they no longer need it?

Phobia writes...

WTF iiNet? This is totally unacceptable and unless you are able to restore my service to its prior state..

Doesn't look like they grandfathered the "old" business plans, just changed their plan details. So I doubt they would be able to do this for you. :(

Did you call through to regular customer support or the iiBusiness team?

I called through the iiBusiness number.

I've sent an email through to you with my details.

Phobia writes...

It appears that iiNet has changed my plan from a Business 5 with 60/60 GB Peak/Offpeak, to 100GB Anytime without notifying me.

Just a quick note on this - checking the plans, it's a change from 60/60 to 110GB anytime.

Michael Davis writes...

Just a quick note on this - checking the plans, it's a change from 60/60 to 110GB anytime.

Only when you bundled with Phone 1 business, otherwise it is 100GB

AI 强 writes...

Only when you bundled with Phone 1 business, otherwise it is 100GB

Good point. I think i'll leave the products stuff to the customer service and marketing people, i can't keep up :)

I did not get any notice about this either. 10gb limit drop and im 2.2gb from my limit now. with 6 days to go

Michael Davis writes...

Seems strange that you weren't notified

No notification here, either. Logged on today and suddenly found I've lost my off-peak quota. (edit: and 10Gb!)

If Iinet did notify customers then it would have generated a whirlpool thread... but I can't find any about these changes before this one. When did the notification go out?

gavinWA writes...

If Iinet did notify customers then it would have generated a whirlpool thread... but I can't find any about these changes before this one. When did the notification go out?

I have to side with Gavin here.

As an iiNet fan I am disappointed to what appears to be a plan change without the minimum detrimental notification period.

Surely you can't ignore the rules even when most people will be happy with the change.

If the plan change notification was sent out in the required notification period this would have surely appeared as a thread at some period.

Just noticed iiUsage showing only 1 bar!!!

I just checked Bus 4 and according to the page I still 80GB total (was 40/40) but if I unckeck VOIP I still have 80GB.. i.e. if you add VOIP just for the extra QUOTA you can disable it and save $9.95 per month!(Normal phone adds 10GB).

But...there is always a but!
business 5 - $159.90 ADSL2+ speeds 100GB $159.90

was 60GB/60GB for $159.90 so a loss of 20GB WTF

So
OLD Bus 4 -> Bus 5 = $30 for 40GB
NEW Bus 4 -> Bus 5 = $30 for 20GB

Having said that, I DO like the anytime bit. No more queuing things up woot!

It looks like the only way that I can keep my current 60 gig (20/40) download limit and not increase my costs will be to drop my unused VoIP, bundle a PSTN phone service and then hope that the person I speak to will be nice enough to give me the residential rate for line rental.

If this works out, I'll be pleased with the outcome. If not, I may be browsing BC to see how iiNet compares with the competition.

Perhaps as a way of apologising for the confusion that this has caused, iiNet will give everyone on a business plan a free upgrade to Annex M ;)

All I can say is im going to murder that whirlpool user who posted wanting new plans.

Im now sortchanged 10 Gig of traffic, which I was really going to be needing. So much for thinking we were going to get better bang for buck as time goes on.

Ive lodged a request for a team member to call me tomorrow.

Lets see how this goes during business hours.

Let's pause and put these changes in perspective

Business 1 OLD 0.5/0.5 NEW 5
Business 1 Bundle OLD 1/1 NEW 10
Business 2 OLD 2/2 NEW 25
Business 2 Bundle OLD 7/14 NEW 30
Business 3 OLD 10/10 NEW 50
Business 3 Bundle OLD 20/40 NEW 60
Business 4 OLD 20/10 NEW 80
Business 4 Bundle OLD 40/40 NEW 90
Business 5 OLD 40/20 NEW 100
Business 5 Bundle OLD 60/60 NEW 110
Business 6 OLD 130 NEW 150
Business 6 Bundle OLD 150 NEW 170
Business 7 OLD 280 NEW 300
Business 7 Bundle OLD 300 NEW 310

Avg quota increase is 16.57 GB with 93% of plans receiving the same or more quota and don't forget the fact that these plans are also now anytime! Seems to me that for the sake of 10GB's maybe it's a mistake that the business 5 bundle isn't at 120GB's?

However, all in all, For a business, especially a small business who uses the internet for normal everyday business activities the value seems clear?

I'm not sure why the bundling benefits from VoIP have been removed. Though even in that circumstance, if you look at old bundled quota vs. new unbundled quota of the same plan the average change is only -3 GB, mostly because of 2 big change deficits on 3 and 5, however most plans aren't even affected. Not great but hardly gonna shift the world off its tilt.

Plus upload quota's remain uncounted even on Annex M, don't forget about that. In summary, for a business, I reckon these plan changes look pretty good.

stra8egic writes...

Plus upload quota's remain uncounted even on Annex M

I reckon uploads will count on the "new" home plans ...

www.acma.gov.au/WEB/STANDARD/pc=PC_100600

By way of comparison, the Australian Communications Industry Forum’s Consumer Contracts Code provides for 21 days notice to be given by way of direct notification to customers.

You can also see many references to the 42 day period (21 days notification + extra 21 days break contract without free) here in the CRA full so you KNOW about it.
www.iinet.net.au/about/cra/cra_full_ii.pdf

Excerp from the CRA summary.
www.iinet.net.au/about/c...a_summary_ii.pdf

Further, if we make any change which would cause detriment to
you, you may cancel the Service without incurring any Break
Fee/cancellation charge by giving notice to us within 42 days after
the date we notify you of the change.

If doing so is likely to have a significant
detrimental impact on your use of the Service, then we will give
you 21 days prior notice of the intended variation and you may
cancel the service without incurring any Break fee by giving notice
to us within 42 days
after the date we notify you of the intended change.

Where is the notification from 21 days ago?

It has been stated that a 10Gb or 20GB loss is a significant detrimental impact. Whether this constitutes a significant change in the eyes iiNet should be questioned. It is not for you to determine what constitutes a significant change. The consumer is the one who determines this between the arbitrator.

You should at least bump everyones quota back up to the full peak/offpeak amounts at least until the 21 day period has finished and offer a free contract break for a further 21 days if this does not suit.

In this case iiNet has basically ignored the rules and hoped the banner of significant change would fall in your favour. This is not on. Under this mentality taking away our basic right to a fair arbitration by putting a value on our conception of plan value and detrimental change.

Any quota change to a lower value is a significant change to the original plan specifics.

What other CRA items can and will you choose to ignore?

We all agreed to this CRA as a form of protection are you saying that this document is worthless you can choose which portions to interpret and which ones to ignore?

stra8egic writes...

I'm not sure why the bundling benefits from VoIP have been removed.

I agree with this - there should be a benefit for bundling VoIP!

DeKa writes...

there should be a benefit for bundling VoIP!

And as there is no benefit, there should be an easy way of removing it.
I can only find an option in Toolbox to ADD VoIP, no cancel or remove option.

also

stra8egic writes...

Business 5 OLD 40/20 NEW 100
Business 5 Bundle OLD 60/60 NEW 110
assumes ADSL2+

On ADSL1
Business 5 OLD 40/20 NEW 50

Mark

I had the same issue so I ended up ringing them to do my business upgrade.

I was on the home 5 with voip (which I never used as I prefer the MNF service).

Annex M means a lot to me as does the anytime rather than peak/offpeak so I have moved to business 3 and cancelled voip.

Not sure of all the pros and cons of a static ip so I'll do some research before I request that one

stra8egic writes...

However, all in all, For a business, especially a small business who uses the internet for normal everyday business activities the value seems clear?

Hi Guys,

Stra8egic has hit the nail on the head! The plans have been revamped for SOHO/SMB business customers. Our current plans were not competitive, so we have revised the plans to ensure the majority of our business customers are given value for money.

From surveying customers and market research we have listened to what has been requested, i.e. “why do I have to pay for services I do not require/want”. Business customers have asked for improved quota plans for the periods their business operates – hence the introduction of “anytime quotas”.

stra8egic writes...

I'm not sure why the bundling benefits from VoIP have been removed.

We have removed the quota increase for bundling VoIP, because many business customers have been selecting VoIP to get an increase in quota, rather than selecting VoIP to use the service.

stra8egic writes...

Plus upload quota's remain uncounted even on Annex M, don't forget about that. In summary, for a business, I reckon these plan changes look pretty good.

We are continually looking to ensure our business customers are given value for money and that we as a business are addressing the needs of this customer base.

Regards
Andy McIntyre

GM Business - iiNet

Andy Mc writes...

Stra8egic has hit the nail on the head! The plans have been revamped for SOHO/SMB business customers.

Although the reasons for the change make sense, it still doesn't explain the complete lack of notification.

If I had been notified I would have managed my traffic better and I wouldn't be stuck as I am now with all my off-peak quota dumped into my 'any time' quota and being shaped.

Assuming that a split quota isn't suitable for businesses assumes that all businesses work the same. For example, my business connection does far more traffic at night due to off-site backups, WSUS/Antivirus updates etc than during the day so split quota actually works well for me.

Andy Mc writes...

have asked for improved quota plans for the periods their business operates – hence the introduction of “anytime quotas”.

Andy,

Whist I whole heartedly support the new plans, as a concept, and overall except for Business 5.

Can you confirm, whilst every other plan has gotten better value for money, why Business 5 has not?

After my discussions with a rep today, they said the plan was under review, and will hopefully have something come of it.

Are you able to confirm this information?

Cheers,

Rob
DTP@ii

gavinWA writes...

For example, my business connection does far more traffic at night due to off-site backups, WSUS/Antivirus updates etc than during the day so split quota actually works well for me.

Does it matter when you use it? After all, you get it when you want it, day or night.

I think thats the idea they're getting at, which yes, I support, but at a lower quota point on B5, I dont.

From what I can see only people to be notified are B5 Customers, and considering they arent notified, I would assume that the quota review isn't right? Or someone dropped the ball bigtime.

Andy Mc writes...

Our current plans were not competitive, so we have revised the plans to ensure the majority of our business customers are given value for money.

It's nice to hear that iiNet is actually listening to what customers want now rather than the opposite and introducing unpopular changes. The vast majority of our soho customers are placed onto internode accounts for the purpose of having using their quota anytime even if this means they get slower speeds.

This change is positive as most the clients we look after finish before 6pm and start at 8am, the offpeak quota is hardly used in the period and hence a larger plan was required to make up for the small initial quota.

I'm happy with the change even if I personally have lost quota at home, (we get 170gb at the office) which is more than enough.

I'm a bit miffed as to why Business 5 lost quota though when all other plans were increased is this an error?

disturbthepeace writes...

After my discussions with a rep today, they said the plan was under review, and will hopefully have something come of it.

Hi Guys

Business 5 is under review due to your comments, I will endevour to have a response back to you for this plan by the end of the week.

I think the most important point in this thread is that a change had occurred and absolutely no notification was given.

Many of us balance network activity by syncing off-site backups and mirror servers at night. Thanks to the switch, a handful of us have found ourselves prematurely shaped.

Last night we were forced to pay extra to get bandwidth we needed for the rest of our billing cycle - all iiNet needed to do is stick to their own CRA and give us a heads-up.

Yes, I agree the removal of peak/offpeak is good for a lot of customers, however how it was done is utterly deplorable.

grum writes...

I think the most important point in this thread is that a change had occurred and absolutely no notification was given.

This should be the only point of argument.

The CRA states a notification of 21 days will occur and this didn't happen.

Customers are wearing the cost of this as a result which is both grossly morally inappropriate and in breach of the CRA.

People who aren't affected should still see this as a slight because it shows the protections of the CRA are useless as they are NOT enforced. What if they decide that taking away half your quota isn't a 'significant detriment'? What are we supposed to just take it?

Sagos Krauts Duh writes...

The CRA states a notification of 21 days will occur and this didn't happen.

I don't think it's a case of ignoring the CRA, more that the changes were seen to be for the good rather than detrimental for businesses. As I'm sure you're aware, the 21 days notice is only for significant detrimental changes to plans.

I'm not arguing that this is/isn't detrimental .. clearly it has disadvantaged the people above who are unhappy. Just trying to present a different viewpoint.

What if they decide that taking away half your quota isn't a 'significant detriment'? What are we supposed to just take it?

Well if you lose half the quote but gain something else, I guess it may be a gray area as to whether it is detrimental. I'd like to think the relevant parties would learn from this incident and err on the side of caution in future, however.

-Morty- writes...

Well if you lose half the quote but gain something else, I guess it may be a gray area as to whether it is detrimental.

The point is it is not for the ISP to determine what constitutes a detrimental change. It is the customer who determines this. Otherwise the whole premise of having that stated in the CRA is useless, the document is not a "Internet Service Provider Service Guarantee" it is a "Customer Service Guarantee" to protect the customer from certain circumstances. We determine what is a significant change or otherwise the ISP can simply say all and any changes are to quote 'not significant'.

If I had a plan that had 60/60 and all of sudden I find myself shaped because I have already used 110GB of my 120Gb quota (albeit in different periods) because the ISP changed the quota to 100GB I would be pissed. The plan states 120GB.

There is no argument in the world that trumps the fact that 100Gb is not 120GB.

If iiNet can hide behind the protections of not rolling customers over into new and better plans that have all better conditions except for call cost changes then a customer should have the protection of not being rolled over to a new plan that has ANY changes what so ever.

We can determine what plans are better for us but we can't determine what is 'detrimental'? Of course we know what is 'detrimental'.

-Morty- writes...

I'd like to think the relevant parties would learn from this incident and err on the side of caution in future, however.

Guys, as Morty has explained we didn't think that there was a detrimental change to anyones plans. However, on reflection maybe we should have posted a 21 day notice.

I can only appologise for any inconvenience caused, but believe that the majority of customers are much better off.

Sagos Krauts Duh writes...

There is no argument in the world that trumps the fact that 100Gb is not 120GB.

Sure there is. If everybody on the plan was only using peak quota and neglecting offpeak, then this would not be detrimental.

Business 5 is under review due to your comments, I will endevour to have a response back to you for this plan by the end of the week.

Very much appreciated Andy.
I'll keep tuned.

Cheers.

My work is extremely happy with these changes so good job there for listening for once :)

A notice be it for good or bad would have been nice however. I can see why non business people using the business plans would be pissed off though. Looks like iinet didn’t quite look at the whole picture.
Still, it certainly is a VERY good move in the right direction

I have had a substantial saving, going from $179 a month to $109 a month by dropping from Business 5 to Business 3 and I have more quota too in effect as the On/Off peak has now been merged into a single figure that I can use during the day.

More quota, $70 a month saving... no complaints here.

So what about the business customers who are affected by this? The OP mentioned that they've already been shaped.

What was wrong with the grandfathering model? It was in place specifically to stop these types of issues.

Also, what about the residential customers who are on business plans to get a static IP because iiNet doesn't offer it on non-business products any more? I'm fairly sure they're going to be severely affected by this too.

gg iiNet, you really thought this one through...

noonereallycares writes...

bundle a PSTN phone service and then hope that the person I speak to will be nice enough to give me the residential rate for line rental.

Has anyone successfully bundled a residential rate line rental "Phone 1" with the new business plans? I currently have an old "iiPhone Residential" bundled with a new Business 3 plan but it's only giving me 50GB not 60GB so it's clearly not "bundled". If someone has been able to bundle "Phone 1" I'll do the same.

stra8egic writes...

Let's pause and put these changes in perspective

Business 1 OLD 0.5/0.5 NEW 5
Business 1 Bundle OLD 1/1 NEW 10
Business 2 OLD 2/2 NEW 25
Business 2 Bundle OLD 7/14 NEW 30
Business 3 OLD 10/10 NEW 50
Business 3 Bundle OLD 20/40 NEW 60
Business 4 OLD 20/10 NEW 80
Business 4 Bundle OLD 40/40 NEW 90
Business 5 OLD 40/20 NEW 100
Business 5 Bundle OLD 60/60 NEW 110
Business 6 OLD 130 NEW 150
Business 6 Bundle OLD 150 NEW 170
Business 7 OLD 280 NEW 300
Business 7 Bundle OLD 300 NEW 310

Did the price change on any of the plans?

.
.
.
.
.
.

You are quoting significantly more words than you have written.
Consider whether you need to quote at all -- unless you are quoting to respond to a specific statement, it's usually easier to just mention who you're responding to.
Otherwise, trim the quoted passages down as much as you can.

DeKa writes...

If someone has been able to bundle "Phone 1" I'll do the same.

My newly ordered "Phone 1" service is currently in a state of "provisioning". As yet, there has been no change in my quota. I can only assume that the bundle won't take effect until the phone service is fully provisioned.

Unfortunately, Telstra now make more money out of the deal and iiNet make less money. I would have preferred to keep the old HLB + unused VoIP option.

Shaun Max writes...

Did the price change on any of the plans?

No. If it had, iiNet would probably have grandfathered the existing plans.

Andy Mc writes...

Our current plans were not competitive, so we have revised the plans to ensure the majority of our business customers are given value for money.

Didn't numerous users told you so when they first came out???

From surveying customers and market research we have listened to what has been requested

You only listen when your $$$ is dropping.

because many business customers have been selecting VoIP to get an increase in quota

as do many of your non-business adsl customers ... so what are you guys going to do about it?

Andy Mc writes...

Business 5 is under review due to your comments, I will endevour to have a response back to you for this plan by the end of the week.

Any further news on this?

When are the reviews for Business 5 being released?

As a Business 5 customer, I'm pissed off.

Gareh writes...

When are the reviews for Business 5 being released?

I would expect soon.

I just got a letter in the snail mail, saying and I quote:

Dear Mr. XXX,

Great news, your iiNet Business broadband plan just got even better.

It then goes on to say;
They include:
Improved quota limits for ALL Business Broadband plans.

The letter is generated on the 5th of May 2008, and states changes will be active as at Tuesday the 6th of May.

I do not for a second think that this is 1) an acceptible time frame
2) acceptible marketing
3) aceptible recompense for the wasted time.

I know it may seem a little harsh, but considered, it wouldn't have made a difference, if they actually pulled it off properly...
"Hey you may not have noticed but we just gave you 10Gig of traffic, and Anytime quota for no cost"

Is a little different from, hey' we just took 10 gig from you, and notified you late.--- it just stings that little bit more.

Little point to marketing. You know nothing else, apart from how to sell. Make sure your english, and facts are correct.

Mr McIntyre, I would definately not allow my name to be put on this untill its properly checked out. And to add to that, when your marketing is ass-backwards then seriously how do you think your perspective customers think?

disturbthepeace writes...

I just got a letter in the snail mail

Yep. Checked the letterbox when I got home, and I got the exact same letter.

I hope this is taken care of ASAP.

Sagos Krauts Duh writes...

The CRA states a notification of 21 days will occur and this didn't happen.

Customers are wearing the cost of this as a result which is both grossly morally inappropriate and in breach of the CRA.

It sounds like a pretty average performance. I'm not on one of the altered plans so it doesn't really affect me, but if I was on one of them I'd be pissed. I would have thought that after bumping prices on iiPhone Residential, 1500->512kbps plan changes, $10 hikes on broadband1 medium, and other plan changes over the years that they'd be used to sending a 21-day notification out to relevant clients. Sure, this change could be argued to not be detrimental in the same way these other examples were, however you could also argue it's common courtesy to give some sort of heads-up.

I reckon due recompense could be found in something along the lines of dropping those who organised the plan changes on the phone queue to take calls from those customers for a few days. How about it? :-)

I'd just send out an email or a letter to the Business 5 custies giving them 21 days to request a change back to their original quota or they're stuck with it. Easy fixed.

Me, I'm on Business 3 and basking in my 60GB of anytime goodtimes :P .

Ovalteen writes...

I'd just send out an email or a letter to the Business 5 custies giving them 21 days to request a change back to their original quota or they're stuck with it. Easy fixed.

or upgrade it to 120gb Anytime ... exact same quota as before, only now can be used anytime of the day

I too was surprised the other night when I wanted to show someone some iiBusiness plans for their consideration and to my surprise the Business 3 (which I am on) had changed on the website.

So I logged into toolbox and found that I was now on 50GB anytime instead of 20/40.

Given that I was one of those customers who bundled with VOIP for the extra quota, I'm annoyed that I lost 10GB and still pay $10 per month for an unused service.

I called bus support to have the VOIP removed so hopefully that's taken care of, but if you can give your Phone customers 60GB anytime, why not bring back the VOIP bundling option? At least that way there can be no disadvantage to any Business 3 customer..?

Andy Mc writes...

From surveying customers and market research we have listened to what has been requested, i.e. “why do I have to pay for services I do not require/want”. Business customers have asked for improved quota plans for the periods their business operates – hence the introduction of “anytime quotas”.

If you had surveyed business customers you would find many would rather pay an excess usage charge when going over their limit rather than being shaped and have their business strangled until they moved to a higher plan. My business usage needs vary considerably from month to month, as do others I know. Yet to stop me being shaped I'm forced onto Business 5 at a minimum.

My toolbox shows me as having peak/offpeak still. Do I have to move to the new plans? I actually think the new Business 5 is better as I rarely use anywhere near my offpeak. I gather because I haven't been notified I'm still on the old plans? Will I get notified before I get moved? Will I get moved?

Hstroyer writes...

or upgrade it to 120gb Anytime ... exact same quota as before, only now can be used anytime of the day

Yeah, I'd be happy with that.

Andy Mc writes...

However, on reflection maybe we should have posted a 21 day notice.

There's no "maybe" about it. If you make substantive changes to a plan, you have to notify customers 21 days in advance.

I think you need to increase the bandwidth allowance to be at least as much as the total of on- and off-peak for at least the first month on the new plan. I'm right on the edge of getting shaped with no warning at all.

The new plans aren't bad in themselves, but the lack of notification is inexcusable.

AndyMC

I can only assume this has been an accident and that you will restore the 120GB to me soon, or at least offer compensation for failing to give me notice when you cut off my quota access which was pre paid for. Not to forget that since this is still unresolved, that I am still paying for voiceIP for no benefit.

Indeed I have been materially disadvantaged since I have been denied the rest of my quota from the second you changed it. I still had 15GB off peak to go. My business operates in the off peak hours, so this cost me money!

At least with notice I would have had to reduce the peak usage a coupple of weeks ago, to scrape in under 100GB anytime.

Now I have shaped for 12 whole days! THIS IS BAD FOR BUSINESS.
My ref no: 44259676

Yes I asked for the 15GB off peak to be restored when I called at 2:05am the day of change.

Pixy Misa writes...

There's no "maybe" about it. If you make substantive changes to a plan, you have to notify customers 21 days in advance.

I hope whoever just decided to ignore your own CRA gets an ass kicking.

I am going to say it. This whole shamozzle smacks of marketing dazzle with no compliance.

What did your compliance officer say or did they just die?

Hmm I was thinking of changing to a business plan but now it a no go for sure.

Andy Mc writes...

However, on reflection maybe we should have posted a 21 day notice.

Sorry, should have is not really good enough for business applications.

You have a legal responsibility to tell the customers with 21 days in advance. As stated by your own CRA. You guys made the rules...

Customer: "Well, I should have paid iiNet the full bill, but I didn't think they would mind me not paying them. I mean, it's only 20% they are missing out on."

Last week I saw this thread and called them up to make sure that they wouldn't be changing over our old plan without warning.

I asked for a lowdown on what the new plans would provide for our business...

We were on a grandfather plan which wasn't really that great:

20gb peak 8am-midnight used almost all of the 20gb
20gb offpeak midnight-8am used about 1gb of the 20gb
$69.95

Premium Pack = static IP etc
$29.95

iiPhone
$40.95

Now we are 30gb anytime
Premium pack no longer exists and we keep the same static ip
iiPhone same cost

So $10 less, for 10gb more during the time that we use it. Win?

Upon reviewing the Business DSL plans I believe these offer good value for money and the revised plans will remain in place.

However, if you believe you have been disadvantaged due to the changes made to Business 3 & 5, then please call our Business Customer service line on 13 24 49, where the team will help you resolve your issues.

Andy Mc writes...

Upon reviewing the Business DSL plans I believe these offer good value for money and the revised plans will remain in place.

So what do you say when I tell you this is blatantly breaking one of the conditions set in your CRA?

You are going to make up some guff about nothing that skirts around the issue because you KNOW you are doing something wrong but figure "Hey hardly anyone will complain anyway."

Nice.

I know if I was on one of these plans there would be no way to placate me into believing any of this type of nonsense talk.

Andy Mc writes...

Upon reviewing the Business DSL plans I believe these offer good value for money and the revised plans will remain in place.

So is everyone being migrated? I still think an email or letter to everyone on a business plan regardless of whats going on would be a courteous thing to do regardless of the CRA.

I actually want the anytime limits, but appear not to be on the new plans. I will probably drop to the Business 4 anyway as it is better value for money and now I wont need the whole 110GB.

I also have clients on the Bus3 and 5 plans, I assume they also will be notified?

Andy Mc writes...

Upon reviewing the Business DSL plans I believe these offer good value for money and the revised plans will remain in place.

Andy,

I respectfully disagree. The term 'good value' is relative as we all know. The Business 5 plans was BETTER value before your recent changes. Without notification, all Business 5 users have had their quota CUT placing some users over the limit without any form of recourse. Given the fact these are business plans that people rely on for their livelihood, this is unacceptable and extremely unprofessional.

Why have other plans received an average 10GB quota increase whilst Business 5 has received a 10GB decrease? I thought this change was supposed to increase the value of these plans - why should Business 3&5 be any different?

As for the palm-off to customer service, what are they supposed to do?

Extremely poor response iiNet - i for one am NOT happy.

Andy Mc writes...

Upon reviewing the Business DSL plans I believe these offer good value for money and the revised plans will remain in place.

However, if you believe you have been disadvantaged due to the changes made to Business 3 & 5, then please call our Business Customer service line on 13 24 49, where the team will help you resolve your issues.

That doesn't address the problem, and you know it. You made these changes in violation of your own CRA. You need to be proactive in solving the problem you've caused, and not expect your customers to work out what's going on and call you.

Just got the letter today. I note that it promises "Improved quota limits for all Business Broadband plans." A reduction from 120GB to 110GB is an improvement?

Pixy Misa writes...

Just got the letter today. I note that it promises "Improved quota limits for all Business Broadband plans." A reduction from 120GB to 110GB is an improvement?

That note still doesn't qualify as notification before the event.

They are still required to give 21 days notice prior as it says in the CRA.

Pixy Misa writes...

Just got the letter today. I note that it promises "Improved quota limits for all Business Broadband plans." A reduction from 120GB to 110GB is an improvement?

Just received this letter myself. What a joke.

EDIT: For anyone that is interested, here is the letter iiNet sent clearly stating "improved quota limits for all Business Broadband plans":

www.digitician.com.au/~e...iness-Letter.jpg

As an iiNet customer not on a business plan - and after reading through this thread - I would have to say that is EXTREMELY poor business practices from iiNet.

They broke their own CRA and gave customers 1 day warning. That is as bad as Telstra who broke my online billing access with an email saying it would happen the same day: /forum-replies.cfm?t=966509

This sort of shenanigans should be front page material on Whirlpool - "iiNet pulls a fast one on Business customers with 1 days notice". The fact that you DIDN'T communicate to your customers earlier was because you KNEW it was going to be bad news for some.

Really poor form iiNet. Now I have no guilt in referring a friend to Internode over iiNet.

No doubt iiNet reps will steer clear of this thread, probably a word from the MD saying "ooh a bit hot in there boys, don't stir the hornets nest". Giving 1 day's notice (via snail mail) about a reduction in your service is pathetic - its Telstra-like and you should be ashamed in saying that you think the plan offers the same value - the customers decide what is value to them or not, and I see plenty in here on Business 5 plans (some first time posters too) who are not too happy with this.

Lift your game iiNet. Getting big by buying other companies and making amateur sales/marketing mistakes makes you look like chumps.

Shame on you Andy McIntyre, shame!

Pixy Misa writes...

That doesn't address the problem, and you know it. You made these changes in violation of your own CRA. You need to be proactive in solving the problem you've caused, and not expect your customers to work out what's going on and call you.

Amen. iiNet's behaviour smacks of arrogance.

What shits me the most is you can justify other crappy behavior with simple business tactics.

But when you specifically break a minimum terms contract like the CRA there is nothing to sit devils advocate to.

What is a fanboi supposed to say?

"Ahh the CRA is for jokers anyway and only a discontent would argue with being served less then minimum conditions."

Andy Mc writes...

Upon reviewing the Business DSL plans I believe these offer good value for money and the revised plans will remain in place.

Andy, can you please let us know what iiNet intends to do to customers who have been disadvantaged?

Given the circumstances, I would expect nothing less than restoring their previous level of service and reimbursement of any costs incurred from the change.

iiNet has violated it's agreement with a number of it's business users, and until it recognises this mistake for what it is and takes the above steps to rectify the situation - they can hardly expect to taken seriously as an honourable provider in the business adsl market.

Your move, iiNet.

LynX WiLdCaT writes...

This sort of shenanigans should be front page material on Whirlpool - "iiNet pulls a fast one on Business customers with 1 days notice"

That's a damn good question, why isn't it?

One has to wonder though at just how many people must be put out by this.

You would think that if iiNet had done the maths and figured that hardly anybody would be affected by the plans that have changed for the worse, then logic would seem to dictate that iiNet would have simply kept the quota the same or increased it along with the others, that is of course, and we are taking iiNet at their word here, that the negatively impacted plans were not siginificant in number.

EpaL writes...

As for the palm-off to customer service, what are they supposed to do?

Has anyone called them to find out?

I'd at least see what the Business Team is prepared to do. I'd do it myself but I'm on Business 3, so not affected.

If all the Business Team does is fob everyone off then yeah, flame away/

LynX WiLdCaT writes...

This sort of shenanigans should be front page material on Whirlpool - "iiNet pulls a fast one on Business customers with 1 days notice".

The editors aren't omniscient, and this thread is only 4 pages along. If you really do want to see this on the front page for some reason you might want to submit a tip:
whirlpool.net.au/news/?action=submit

pffft what a pisspoor job from IINET, i actually loose 10GB on Business 3 because i scheduled all my backups to come after 2am! and 10GB that's how big my backup AD virtual machine is!

I'm looking at internode now....

Odium2007 writes...

So $10 less, for 10gb more during the time that we use it. Win?

Additional: Flip from Happy to Pissed off... During the change of plans they lost our Static IP Address, all weekend noone was able to access any of the services that were located on that IP Address...

VPN, Customer Relationship Management Software, etc... Very angry...

Fixed now but annoyed, since I double and triple checked during our plan change that our IP would be alright. And today the guy on Support says to me "Would it be alright if I change the static IP that is assigned to your account to the one that you are currently running on?" errr... No? ACL's etc.... "It could take a bit of effort to change it back to your old one"... "It needs to be the old one, do what you have to do, I see that the old one is still assigned to my account in the toolbox, make it so"... 30 seconds later it was done. Much better than the few hours it would have taken out of my day to change ACL's on all our external servers to suit the other IP.

</rage>

This didnt affect me. But i still think iinet blew chunks on this one with the no notification of customers. Lowering quota is ALWAYS detrimental to someone. Maybe not everyone, but someone still means CRA 21 day notification period applies.
Shame on you iinet.

Ovalteen writes...

If you really do want to see this on the front page for some reason you might want to submit a tip:

Already did after I posted.

very happy with the change
moved from 40/40 plan to 90GB flat ... same price

gavinWA writes...

If I had been notified I would have managed my traffic better and I wouldn't be stuck as I am now with all my off-peak quota dumped into my 'any time' quota and being shaped.

how so?
the total quota have been increased. how could traffic being *managed* differently made any difference to how you would be shaped?

How does having 90GB at all time be worse than 40GB peak + 40GB off peak (as an example). please explain your logic

Other than business 5 wwhere you loose a little bit of quota (sounds like an error to me as all other plan got their quota increased)

my business connection does far more traffic at night due to off-site backups

all upload, doesn't count toward your quota

I did receive an iinet notice of the change today. for changes going to happen last week :)

was looking at moving my business connection to TPG, not anymore after those changes

guys, other than complaining on whirlpool, you should contact the TIO.

iinet answer like "Upon reviewing the Business DSL plans I believe these offer good value for money and the revised plans will remain in place."

is insulting IMO ...

For the same money you will always get less "anytime" quota than on/off-peak.

That's the point of having on/off-peak quotas.

Manatoba writes...

For the same money you will always get less "anytime" quota than on/off-peak.

That's the point of having on/off-peak quotas.

That is not the point. I would argue this is true as well. Of course peak is more valuable then offpeak but that isn't the point of contention.

The point is that the CRA states that any significant changes, customers will be notified 21 days prior to the change and be offered a total of 42 days to leave without penalty.

I see no notification yet I can probably assume they are allowing people who complaint to leave without penalty. Which is yet another insult because if the only offering is a bone to leave without penalty then you should at least have had 21 days to FIND another account to change to before they bone you.

Regardless of perceived value, quota is a measurable quantitative value on your account specifics. The difference between 100GB and 120GB is clearly a lesser quantitative value and therefore constitutes a significant change to your account and therefore should be under conditions of the CRA.

In fact by definition ANY change to the account specifics is a significant change because it will ultimately effect someone unless ALL conditions are either equal or better by quantitative value.

I hate analogies but lets have one anyway. You buy $50 worth of fruit which is supposed to contain at least 4 types of fruit at the value of the items to $50. So during the winter season one type of fruit is more prevalent then the rest but more expensive. You can't just change the 4 fruit rule and substitute 2 of the fruit with the more expensive fruit to make a total of 3 different types of fruit. You are obligated to provide 4 types of fruit under the contract to the value of $50. Changing the contract because it suits the season and seller. The buyer may be able to onsell those fruit for more but unless there is an agreement you are obligated to sell the 4 fruit from the original contract.

Anyone who is shaped under the assumption of having 120GB can clear explain the detrimental effect of less quota which is early shaping.

Sagos Krauts Duh writes...

You are obligated to provide 4 types of fruit under the contract to the value of $50. Changing the contract because it suits the season and seller. The buyer may be able to onsell those fruit for more but unless there is an agreement you are obligated to sell the 4 fruit from the original contract.

You've got to be kidding me?

stra8egic writes...

You've got to be kidding me?

Fruit jokes are sacrament to me.

Anyway the analogy that contract specifics must be adhered to is valid and the CRA is nothing but a minimum terms contract.

I want iiNet to say "no significant change has occurred" so they be seen to committing to a standpoint in the argument. Since so far it is all pretty wishy washy. Which is what you are DYING to say aren't you?

Since it would justify their position even if it is totally unreasonable in any normal fashion.

I am calling you out. Commit. Or be stained by the mediocre fence sit and standpoint that enough people wont complain to ignore the CRA and hope nobody significant will call you out on it so you have to do something about it.

Is is really that hard to adhere to a CRA where all you have to do is notify 2 plan types of a change in 21 days time?

That is my biggest problem. Even the CRA conditions are so minimal a procedure to follow that hardly protect anything at all yet you can so easily cast them aside when it suits.

Sourced from: iinet.net.au/products/business/faq.html#3

I'm on a different plan to the current sold business plans, and you know my usage and how much I currently spend. Why haven't you moved me automatically to a current plan?

In most cases, many customers will benefit from the features of the current business broadband plans. Even though the prices and quotas between new and old plans are quite similar, the features are not identical, and as such we understand that some customers may not wish to be moved automatically to the current plans. Therefore we will do our best to notify you of a plan that we feel would better suit your needs, but in the end, the change is up to you!

Whatever may be in the CRA this explicitly states that it is a customers choice to move from an old plan to a new plan.
If anyone has been forcibly moved I would be shoutly loudly about it.
This is current and public information stating to the contrary.

Also, are uploads uncounted on normal business plans?

Moredhel writes...

Also, are uploads uncounted on normal business plans?

No. The current setup is that only naked plans have counted uploads.

Whatever may be in the CRA this explicitly states that it is a customers choice to move from an old plan to a new plan.

I pointed that out previously in the thread. If iiNet can hide behind the CRA to not move people to new plans when the only plan difference is the call cost then we should at least be able to use the CRA to protect us from changing plan specifics like reduced overall quota.

/forum-replies.cfm?t=971518&p=2#r31

It is a blaringly self serving view of the CRA to not at a minimum provide the minimum 21 days notice.

Andy has posted in here previously, but just to reiterate. If anyone has been detrimentally affected by this change, please call the business line and they will take care of you.

As should be obvious, the intention was to make life better for everyone. The fact that some people have been negatively hit is now glaringly clear, and it's something that the whole team is pretty embarrassed about. We were very proud of the upgrade, most customers are really happy about it because in nearly all cases it's a plus. That's why it was rolled out without notice, because we really truly didn't think anyone would be worse off. It's really disappointing that something this obvious (now in retrospect) got missed.

I can now only apologise and say we'll fix it as best we can if you call in and let us know.

MM

Michael Malone writes...

we'll fix it as best we can if you call in

Can one of you guys who is affected call and tell us what this fix entails when you ask for it?

If it is simply a no penalty ticket out of iiNet remember that iiNet still owes you the CRA notice period of 21 days notice till the actual change and then a further 21 days no penalty leave period. This should have been the period where you decide who you are going with if you intend to leave. You should be asking for your extra quota back or at least compensation for lost quota because of plan changes for the 21 day period because this is what you are owed.

You know I keep typing stereotypical stuff like:

Admitting an error and fixing it are 2 different things.
So did the CRA conditions just cease to exist when you decide they don't suit?

Then I keep deleting it.

But all that is standard Whirlpool whinge that stuff that only retroactively looks at the issue at hand once the problem has been aired. I keep typing it and it looks like your standard whinge and reiteration of the issue that won't be addressed anyway. The issue has been raised and doesn't need to be reiterated thousands of times for my amusement we all know what it is.

Lame. It appears that as long as you appease the bottom line you can ignore the CRA and sit back and pat yourself on the back for a better product.

I hope the rule sticklers are spinning in their voiceless boxes in the face of overwhelming apathy.

Michael Malone writes...

MM

MM

Initially, thankyou very much for the input.

Just out of curiosity, perhaps you can give us a tiny little bit of insight into the thought process behind this problem.

Initially I'm wondering why the outcome of the buisness review meeting was not to do either of the two things;

re-instate the previous plans, and delay the launch. (which I can imagine the pressure it puts on the other departments to get changes out the door and into production.)

Change the quota allotment to the affected plans, increasing them to the same quota they had before, at the same price. Whilst not as appealing as other plans (IE' dont get 10 gig Extra, but dont get 10Gig taken away), does remove the 'detrimental' impact of the changes, whilst giving them the benefits of the new plans. Still this places some strain on other departments, not as much as delaying the launch, but still, you dont break your own CRA.

Instead they wear the cost of changing from business 5 to 6, and the quota on top of that. In effect 60 Gig in a month. Thats 6 months of 10 Gig lots. It in my mind would have been wiser to ammend the plans, and not cause a massive jump in traffic levels and associated costs for the month, as well as lost revenue, and lost customers.

And also, whilst "business plans are always under review" perhaps you can inform us on wether the plans are to be reviewed earler than usual, and wether there *may* be a value incentive placed on these products at that time? --Basically should I hope the value would get better? even ever so slightly? I realise value has gotten better in essence, with anytime quota. And keeping in mind the reminiscient thoughts of your comments; would you prefer 10 gig onpeak, and 10 gig offpeak, or 10 gig anytime I was still hoping you could perhaps provide a little insight (and perhaps a tiny bit of quota too!), as well as I suppose a few people are wondering why they lost 10 Gig. Is there a reason? traffic costs? Backhaul issues, etc? Just a reason to put this to. As yet I haven't heard any.

Surely even though PCC-2(?) Pipe is going ahead, should we see a leveraged cost savings passed down to the customer, before the completion of this link? - A thought I dont think anyone has asked this question yet, and may not be for this thread, I figure'd I'd throw it out there.

Cheers,

Rob

disturbthepeace@ii

Sagos Krauts Duh writes...

Admitting an error and fixing it are 2 different things.
So did the CRA conditions just cease to exist when you decide they do