Just saw an article in today's Mercury stating that Internode will be withdrawing high speed plans in Tassie although customers currently on those plans will be unaffected - looks like its true - here is the link www.internode.on.net/news/2008/05/89.php

/forum-replies.cfm?t=930481&p=30#r596

Well, if enough Tazzies complain to their state government about the appalling back-haul problems, then someone might pull their fingers out and do something about Basslink. Nothing will happen unless you threaten to vote them out of office.

angusj writes...

Well, if enough Tazzies complain to their state government about the appalling back-haul problems,

There are quite a few of us working together on that exact issue. We are trying to work on a coordinated approach across different spheres. Expect to hear more soon.

We would really like to think that all ISPs will support our efforts.

scarytas writes...

We would really like to think that all ISPs will support our efforts.

All except one ;)

scarytas writes...

We would really like to think that all ISPs will support our efforts.

You have to have the link before you can have the ISP's

Ken Richards. writes...

You have to have the link before you can have the ISP's

I don't get it.

Chuq writes...

I don't get it.

Have you read the front page?

Another cable is there but it is not lit.

What gets me is why did the Tas Gov build the Fibre link? They are heavily in bed with Telstra (All government services provided by Networking Tasmania). So why as a government would you build a fibre link then not have the balls to switch it on yourself?

It is just an example of how Helstra has this state over a gun barrell. It is only going to get worse if they build FTTN.

Ken Richards. writes...

Have you read the front page?

Another cable is there but it is not lit.

Yeah I'm kind of familiar with that situation, but what does your comment have to do with it? There are plenty of ISPs already here. It is just the level of service they are able to offer which is the problem.

HAAW writes...

What gets me is why did the Tas Gov build the Fibre link? They are heavily in bed with Telstra (All government services provided by Networking Tasmania). So why as a government would you build a fibre link then not have the balls to switch it on yourself?

Tas Gov didn't build it. National Grid (a UK company) built it, Tas Govt had an agreement to use 8 of the 12 fibre optic cores, National Grid sold to CitySpring (a Singapore company) and for some reason they agreement didn't legal carry through.

They are in bed with Telstra presumably because at the time of that contract being signed (5-10+ years ago) Telstra was the only company which could have serviced the area (don't forget it is all schools as well, so some pretty remote areas had to be covered).

It's not because they want to - the Basslink fibre, the TasGovNet fibre, are all great strategic decisions - and Telstra was specifically excluded from bidding for the new contract. Its a shame they are incompetent at implementing them.

HAAW writes...

It is just an example of how Helstra has this state over a gun barrell. It is only going to get worse if they build FTTN.

The tender allowed for separate state bids - we can only hope that if Telstra gets the rest, a separate Tas Gov backed/Aurora backed bid is done for Tasmania.

Its a rocky road (or is that... undersea cable?) to Tasmania.

Basslink has existed but in a 'stalled' state for years now - demonstrating a stunning lack of execution on the part of those involved (at least, until now - hopefully it'll get switched on soon and make things a hell of a lot better for everyone).

But because its 'nearly' there - and could be lit up with comparatively little effort - that potential in turn stunts the business case for anyone else to build a completely new cable. The risks there are huge - that someone else might spend many tens of millions doing so and have Basslink turned on half way through the build, destroying the business case to recover the investment.

Meantime, Telstra won't lower their price until they're forced to - by competition or ACCC action - but the instant someone else is in the market, Telstra will match them on price.

Meantime, the losers are, clearly, Tasmanian Internet customers.

As soon as the economics improve, we'll unlock the high speed HOME plans again. Meantime, anyone keen to put in a new one is very welcome to select a SOHO or BUSINESS plan - at prices that make it tenable for us to keep upgrading the link we already operate (at an incredibly high cost).

The step we've taken right now is driven by exactly the sentiments expressed by various existing Tasmanian customers here on Whirlpool - that we need to look after existing customers as a priority ahead of connecting new ones, even if that financially disadvantages us in the long term and tends to send customers off to BigPond in the meantime.

So to respect current customers - to avoid them suffering further instances of unacceptable congestion as far as we possibly can - we have been reluctantly forced to curtail new sales on the HOME table price points to new customers in Tasmania. Because right now, each time we upgrade the link, we are actually magnifying the amount of money we lose each month remaining in the Tas market at all (yes, the backhaul is so expensive that its actually a loss making proposition to be a national ISP right now and to keep servicing that state).

But we'll keep supporting those customers we have now - because we want to - and again, the instant the economics improve (and we do hold some optimism that they will improve in the forseeable future) - we'll remove the high speed plan limitation again in Tasmania.

And until then, anyone who is prepared to find the extra $20 per month to pay the effective 'Telstra monopoly tax' in Tasmania can still obtain a new high speed plan. If enough people do that, we'll be able to afford to keep upgrading the link to accommodate them.

Regards,
Simon

Simon Hackett writes...

Basslink has existed but in a 'stalled' state for years now - demonstrating a stunning lack of execution on the part of those involved

Is Internode still interested in actually acquiring the fibre for themselves. It would be good if they bought it out and then pumped some juice into it, at long last *hint hint*. 'node tried to win the tender for it in the beginning though didn't they?

It all just goes to show the complete lack of competence in the Tasmania government

Ken Richards. writes...

Another cable is there but it is not lit.

likesunday.typepad.com/....n_the_dark_2.jpg

mrtechguy writes...

Is Internode still interested in actually acquiring the fibre for themselves.

Oh, we tried. Hard. And weren't able to do so.

That time is past - there are people working on lighting up Basslink and I just hope they manage to get it done soon. I'm quietly optimistic that they will (and we will certainly be happy to buy circuit capacity from them when they do).

Simon Hackett writes...

there are people working on lighting up Basslink and I just hope they manage to get it done soon.

They will take years. Most likely out-come? They give up.

I've said it many times, it'll be years to never before it is lit

Simon - or anyone else from Internode - can you clarify something for me? I wasn't too sure from reading the news release:

Are existing Tasmanian customers able to change plans (up or down) still, or are we effectively locked into the plan we have right now?

E.g. I am on the Home-High-Power10 plan right now. Am I able to choose the Home-High-Power25 at some later date if I so wish? Or if I downgrade to a 1500 plan, will I be able to return to an 8000 plan later?

Lastly, if the 8 Mbit plans change for the better in the future (as Simon has hinted at in another thread) will existing Tasmanian customers be frozen out of these improvements?

Thanks in anticipation of a reply.

Bob the Kelpie writes...

Are existing Tasmanian customers able to change plans (up or down) still, or are we effectively locked into the plan we have right now?

I'm not sure - I'll try to have a clear answer on that by Tuesday. It'd obviously be nice if we could let existing customers on Home-High plans select a different plan at the same line speed. I'll see what we can do about achieving that.

Or if I downgrade to a 1500 plan, will I be able to return to an 8000 plan later?

Almost certainly not, until the limitation is removed in general. I.e. if you leave an 8M plan, for the time being, the only path back is likely to be to move to the SOHO version (which remains available).

Lastly, if the 8 Mbit plans change for the better in the future (as Simon has hinted at in another thread) will existing Tasmanian customers be frozen out of these improvements?

Again, not sure - and again, will try to sort that out by Tuesday, hopefully in a positive way.

To make this clear:

- As soon as the economics improve, the restrictions will disappear again

- SOHO and BUSINESS plans remain available at all line speeds

- We'll do our best to be flexible for existing 8M speed customers as they're the ones we're doing this for, really - by not adding more of them to drive the congestion/$$ equation further backwards for us in the meantime by taking on more high speed customers.

Regards,
Simon

Thanks for your speedy reply Simon.

I appreciate your position and your commitment to the state. I certainly hope Telstra's stranglehold is broken some time soon - first Netspace and now Internode: two significant ISPs for Tasmania, both having to curtail their service in the state (Netspace in the past, Internode now).

I wish someone in the government or at the ACCC would put two and two together.

Hmm Tassie losing plans from ISP's due to expensive backhaul... NT next?

lostme writes...

Hmm Tassie losing plans from ISP's due to expensive backhaul... NT next?

Unlikely, doesn't seem to be the same "contention" issues here in NT ;)

If more NT customers sign up, Internode can upgrade AGVC backhaul as needed (via Telstra), whereas in Tas I suspect there just isn't enough backhaul to go round, thus making everyones plans laggy the more customers added ..

Internode have a reputation for "quality" Internet, and if they just go ahead adding customers left and right, without regard to the limited backhaul, that good reputation will quickly disappear ..

It's a case of "catch 22" ... they were probably trying to offset some of the AGVC congestion by buying IP transit directly for their ADSL2+ DSLAMS (and migrating customers), but when that comes at a non-feasible price, you end up against a wall (add more ADSL2+ customers, but have to fork out $$, or add more ADSL1 customers and suffer the reputation hit from forced oversubscription) ..

So different situations between NT & Tas ;) NT prices would have gone up if ADSL2+ went ahead here (but at a higher rate then Tas I am guessing) ..

Tek

What would be good is if many other ISP's follow and drop high speed plans from being available in Tasmania. This in turn would put pressure on the Tas Government to solve the issue.

Sometimes things have to get worse before they get better.

Y'know, I don't really get the impression that they're all that fussed. As mind-boggingly ridiculous as that sounds, I really haven't seen that much evidence that they're worried about it.

I thought that surely something would come of the fact that Netspace closed off 1500 and 8000 plans a while back, but they didn't bat an eyelid.

angusj writes...

Well, if enough Tazzies complain to their state government about the appalling back-haul problems, then someone might pull their fingers out and do something about Basslink.

Hi Angus, the beaurocrats know about this appalling situation. If you haven't done so, and have a spare 10 minutes, have a read of the submission put in by the Department of Premier and Cabinent, Tasmanian Government for the DBCDE National Broadband Network submissions:

www.dbcde.gov.au/communi..._of_Tasmania.pdf

angusj writes...

Nothing will happen unless you threaten to vote them out of office.

The thing is Mr Lennon beleives that he has the support of the people, and is doing the right thing for us Tasmanians!

Wouldn't be the first politician to wake up after election night without a job, wondering how it all fell apart... Perhaps John Howard could give him some counselling?

HAAW writes...

What gets me is why did the Tas Gov build the Fibre link? They are heavily in bed with Telstra (All government services provided by Networking Tasmania). So why as a government would you build a fibre link then not have the balls to switch it on yourself?

Because for a few short years, back then, we had a state premier, who for the first time in 15 odd years actually led the state well. He got Tasmania going again, and some how mangaged to overcome the politicing, parocialism, petty-mindedness, crap that had bogged us down. He had some big ideas, and got them up & running in double-quick time. He put down a lot of the indecision & festering that destroys growth and development, and he did most of it with the support of the majority of the people of the whole island.

The gas pipe roll-out was one of them. Putting the fibre in the ground at the same time because someone suggested that it was a great idea to include some extra fibre capacity in it was another one. It happen.

It's history now that just as he had a full head of steam up & the state was peaking he went & got diagnosed with lung cancer, immediately resigning from politics and leaving us with the dud of a premier - Mr Lennon. Someone who appeared from day one to have his own agenda, and that agenda never did appear to be one of the best interest of the state. But that is getting a little bit off-topic ;)

Bob the Kelpie writes...

at the ACCC would put two and two together.

Well with the recent announcement by the ACCC that they've come up with a new cost model just for this sort of decision making process it would appear that they are well aware of the inequality of the pricing models used by Telstra when they have a monopoly market at their footstep.

Internode is aware of this new model, so by now I'll assume that the other concerned ISPs are also aware, so you can bet your last sock that they are talking with the ACCC about how they can bring it into play and get the correct adjudication on costs awarded. Time it will take, and sometimes with these things and the confidentiality clauses, etc, nothing is heard about anything until a decision has been reached, unfortunately.

As well, given that the ACCC made up this new pricing model off their own bat, I'd also suggest that they to feel frustrated by the regulationary model they have to follow and the time delays that it causes to occur. So it might make some sense if they also developed a method that reduced the time taken in the process to be able to arrive at a determination. From months to days would be magic. And also with the ability to apply determinations retrospectively, by a matter of years!!

Bob the Kelpie writes...

I thought that surely something would come of the fact that Netspace closed off 1500 and 8000 plans a while back, but they didn't bat an eyelid.

I'm not exactly sure who this hypothetical "they" is, that you are talking about. I think the environment has changed since then anyway, the FTTN spiel we've been bombarded with for the last 12 months has gotten past some of the old perceptions out there as to what broadband is (hint, not 256k, Telstra).

I can tell you from speaking to ex-Netspace customers, many of them ended up on Internode at the time, others on iiNet or Westnet.

Servicing this part of the market is something I can see turning into a game of musical chairs, those who want high speed access will continue to face diminished choice of providers, and those ISPs who collect the higher speed customers will very quickly bear the cost of the increased backhaul required to service them.

My question is:
What can the average comsumer do to prevent/help?

It is all well and good for the ISPs and people like Simon to be trying, but surely there must be something as individuals we can do to get movement on things like the Tasmania link and in the long-term the whole Telstra monopoly (especially if that disasterous FTTN plan comes to fruition).

h0mer writes...

Mr Lennon. Someone who appeared from day one to have his own agenda, and that agenda never did appear to be one of the best interest of the state.

I think his agenda is that he wants to be remembered as some kind of blue collar hero, delivering employees of dinosaur resource industries a continued existence, whilst condemning those of us in tourism, hospitality, ICT, etc. through inaction.

It's fairly obvious he wants his legacy to be as a "mover and shaker" who pulled out all the stops to deliver Gunns' mill on a platter - an economic boost, but at what ultimate cost to the state?

Our children, and their children after them will be the ones who ultimately reap the rewards, or pay the price of this style of governance.

one writes...

What would be good is if many other ISP's follow and drop high speed plans from being available in Tasmania. This in turn would put pressure on the Tas Government to solve the issue.

Yep, give that man a cookie!

Also, is Internode going to do a mail-out to all of its customers advising them of this decision? If the mail-out was framed correctly it could be a very effective method of informing customers of the extent of this current issue, and implications of what may occur when Telstra are awarded the NBN contract.

Also, as most people are aware, Internode grows its business via word of mouth, particularly in Tasmania. It would make for a rather silly recommendation by someone to a fellow Tasmanian that the plan they were being told to apply for was now no longer available, and for a rather extra-ordinary reason to boot! Strange as it sounds, there are Internode customers in Tasmania that don't visit Whirlpool to find out these new & interesting developments in this industry :D

The Snowed One writes...

surely there must be something as individuals we can do to get movement on things like the Tasmania link and in the long-term the whole Telstra monopoly (especially if that disasterous FTTN plan comes to fruition).

There is a public submissions period for regulatory comment on the FTTN tender that closes at the end of June I think.

It's the perfect opportunity for concerned individuals and groups to put their issues forward with regards to Telstra's apparent monopolistic and anti-competitive behaviour.

Digital Tasmania is preparing our submission on regulatory issues and within the context of the current Tasmanian market, where there already exists a greatly diminished choice due to Telstra's gatekeeping role across Bass Strait.

zephyr writes...

Digital Tasmania is preparing our submission on regulatory issues and within the context of the current Tasmanian market, where there already exists a greatly diminished choice due to Telstra's gatekeeping role across Bass Strait.

I think zephyr actually means Digital Tasmania.

:-)

zephyr writes...

I'm not exactly sure who this hypothetical "they" is, that you are talking about.

I was referring to the post above (I should have quoted) and "they" were the Tas Govt.

for the last 12 months has gotten past some of the old perceptions out there as to what broadband is (hint, not 256k, Telstra)

I dunno about that. There may be a shift of perceptions out there to some extent but we mustn't underestimate Telstra's massive advertising machine and the fact that so many people have Telstra accounts for home phone and/or mobile. I wonder how many people - attracted by so-called "half price broadband" plans (i.e. "broadband" = 256k) lock themselves into a 24 month plan simply because the plan is "plenty enough for what they'd want" and that it offers them the simplicity of a single bill.

My brother-in-law was in that exact position and it was only when I pointed out exactly how little value was in that plan did he reconsider. I imagine there'd be a great deal of people out there that do not have someone who knows a bit about broadband who can point out the error of their ways!

I can tell you from speaking to ex-Netspace customers, many of them ended up on Internode at the time, others on iiNet or Westnet.

Yep, I am an ex-Netspace customer who jumped ship when stranded on a 512k plan. However, being on an 8000k will ensure that I won't need to jump ship again - and I love being with Internode. And so...

Servicing this part of the market is something I can see turning into a game of musical chairs,

...is not quite so clear cut as for most Tasmanians, 8000k is as high as they could go anyway unless they are prepared to go to ADSL2+ under Telstra but that's the same as before Internode made this announcement. So whilst 1500k customers wanting an upgrade will have no option but churn, I suspect a larger proportion will already be on plans that suit their speed/capacity requirements. So not so many chairs required!

Bob the Kelpie writes...

I suspect a larger proportion will already be on plans that suit their speed/capacity requirements. So not so many chairs required!

Whilst I would tend to agree, the fact that Internode can't afford to keep putting chairs out there (to continue the analogy) says to me that they are still seeing demand.

The other thing to bear in mind is that a lot of people (myself included) have a certain threshold they are willing to commit to spending.

If Internode were to DSLAM my exchange, I would definitely have gone to an Extreme plan, because the price is similar to what I pay for that amount of data on 1.5Mbps. Likewise, if port costs dropped and they were able to offer 8Mbps at the 1.5Mbps price, then I would have upgraded.

I would suggest that the speed demand is there, but because of the high costs involved, is not currently being fulfilled. In other words, the demand is not for "> 1.5Mbps", it's for "> 1.5Mbps at the right price point"

Its a pity that the 8mgbit connections are, for the time being, getting discontinued. but with all the issues with the late night latency issues i can understand it. maybe if our(tasmanias) gov't stopped fretting about whether or not we can get an AFL team and where they should be based and concentrated more on getting the state up to speed(irony there) with the rest of australia the high speed plans will be released back into tasmania.

just my 2 bits there

artax writes...

fretting about whether or not we can get an AFL team and where they should be based

I'm no AFL fan, but I see this as being just another case of Tassie being taken for granted by the rest of the country.

It does however make one wonder where the priorities lie with this government, I see fixing the broadband issue as being far more achievable NOW than getting another AFL team here.

Emperor "Paul-o" is fiddling while Rome burns - now he wants to distract us Plebeians by giving us something to do at the Colosseum in the hope that we won't notice everything burning down around us.

just read the mercury and even Betfair are complaining.... the emporer might just take it seriously if they threaten to take their business else where!!! he wont be able to place bets on his beloved AFL games if they leave!!

Simon Hackett writes...

Basslink has existed but in a 'stalled' state for years now -

Perhaps (finally)there is a quicker solution available via the ACCC.

www.accc.gov.au/content/...ml/itemId/823983

The Australian Competition and Consumer Commission has issued the final version of the Telecommunications Transmission Cost Model. The model has been designed with the flexibility to calculate cost-based pricing for backhaul on any land based (terrestrial) or under sea (submarine) telecommunications transmission route in Australia.

Hey, is there any reason why this is happening on a Tuesday.....is Monday a public holiday in SA?

Im guessing I can apply for ADSL2+ (Extreme Value Plan)on Monday and I would be OK?

Tolmartyr writes...

Perhaps (finally)there is a quicker solution available via the ACCC.

We're hoping that every single ISP who services this state will lodge an access dispute soon, rather than simply abandoning hope of providing full-parity services here.

The pricing model is there, but until someone actually contests the issue, we are left in limbo on this one.

fightshatner writes...

Im guessing I can apply for ADSL2+ (Extreme Value Plan)on Monday and I would be OK?

Yeah, I guess so, just put your request in before May 6th.

Simon, in regards to Telstra backhaul monopoly is the Northern Territory going to suffer the same fate for new customers wanting to connect to 8Mbps plans?

Flybynight writes...

Simon, in regards to Telstra backhaul monopoly is the Northern Territory going to suffer the same fate for new customers wanting to connect to 8Mbps plans?

I'm not Simon, and I'm not 100% sure, but I think, for ADSL (Tel$tra wholesale that is), that the NT is essentially a part of SA, however, I'm more than happy to be corrected.

this is a bit sad but we have to thank internode for getting the situation noticed again. Its been quite unfair on internode and I'm kinda glad you've made a stance really on our behalf, by pointing to the elephant/s (State Gov, Telstra, Basslink/Cityspring) in the room and telling them to get on with it.

As an existing ADSL2+ customer, if I need to move house at any time before this saga ends, will I be able to move between enabled exchanges and such? say bathurst -> davey or something like that and still keep my connection?

Did anyone see the comment from the Telstra spokesperson?

Telstra Country Wide southern general manager Noel Hunt said the wholesale "backhaul" prices reflected the fact Tasmania was a high-cost, low-volume route for internet traffic.

"Low Volume"? - why then the congestion?
"High Cost" - What cost? They own it
"Internet Traffic" - It also carries the expensive PSTN, fromwhich they make heaps.

www.news.com.au/mercury/...2848-921,00.html

What a load of FUD.
Once a link is established the major cost is amortisation of the original cost of establishment.
I don't know when the original cables were established, but I am sure that with exorbitant Telstra sharges for STD calls, data charges to ISPs etc, the original costs would have to have been amortised many times over.
It costs nothing for a Telco to push data over cable if the cable and both terminating ends are owned by the incumbent.
The only costs are electricity and maintenance .
The exorbitant charges for data transit would by now be almost pure profit.
The only further costs would be if the bandwidth is increased and this becomes an asset investment, which can be amortised over the cable and end equipment life.
How long since Telstra increased bandwidth on this link?
Start telling us some truth Telstra

EDIT: Spelling

Medicash writes...

I don't know when the original cables were established

Estimated at $30 million for the 2nd cable, built in 2003. The article quotes a combined value of $50 million.

The exorbitant charges for data transit would by now be almost pure profit.

$2 million/year for a single 155Mbps STM-1 bearer, according to Internode. They probably made a profin in the first 12 months the second cable was up.

see here for more: whirlpool.net.au/wiki/?tag=Tasmania

I never thought I would say this.. But thank you Betfair. Hopefully they will kick up enough of a stink for Lennon to do something. Also a big thanks to Internode for making an stance and creating a situation that can't be ignored any longer by our crap Government.

Zaeed writes...

Hopefully they will kick up enough of a stink for Lennon to do something.

Threaten to leave the state unless something is done would be a good start..

Also a big thanks to Internode for making an stance

Not only that but thanks for not abandoning Tassie altogether!

I've been reading a bit about tropospheric scatter communications. I wonder if it would be feasible for Internode/Agile to bypass the cable altogether:

www.radyne.net/applicati...etails.aspx?id=2

Medicash writes...

Start telling us some truth Telstra

You might be waiting a while.

Having had meetings with Noel and other people at Telstra I wouldn't expect them to do anything.

We raised serious concerns about various telstra issues, and to date they've done nothing.

You'll notice his title is "Telstra Country Wide southern general manager" what that means is he has to be responsible Tassie by job description, but reality is he doesn't give two hoots.

ArghDee writes...

Threaten to leave the state unless something is done would be a good start..

While that would be a good solution to make a point, the key point missed in that article was that Betfair didn't really have a choice.

Tassie was the only state to grant them a license to operate a betting exchange (one good thing El Presidente Lennon did do).
Despite winning a high court challenge against WA I don't think any other states would be willing to grant Betfair a license while they still have their own monopoly Totes to look after, but that's a whole different argument.

Stan Devia writes...

I wonder if it would be feasible for Internode/Agile to bypass the cable altogether

There is an existing line of site which was used by Telstra for microwave in the past (2 in fact).

What's the throughput on those Radyne systems? Unless it's significantly higher than microwave (and more stable over water) then it's probably not worth the investment.

Regardless of the medium, it's hard to justify an investment in this uncertain environment. Basslink can afford to deep discount, their billion dollar asset isn't going to be at risk of going under if they don't make a huge return on the optic fibre element.

Stan Devia writes...

I've been reading a bit about tropospheric scatter communications. I wonder if it would be feasible for Internode/Agile to bypass the cable altogether:

Optus (and probably others) already have satellite bandwidth to Tassie, unfortunately the latency is a killer for most applications.
www.satsig.net/latency.htm

zephyr writes...

What's the throughput on those Radyne systems? Unless it's significantly higher than microwave (and more stable over water) then it's probably not worth the investment.

20Mbps according to this link:

www.engadget.com/2007/02...r-communications

So probably not enough for an ISP to deliver broadband. But I think I read elsewhere the link features 99.99% availability.

The great thing about this technology seems is you don't get the latency of satellite comms and you avoid all that mucking about with cables.

Stan Devia writes...

20Mbps according to this link

Hmm, sounds like a great "last (300) mile" solution for the other 2%, but we're talking about multi-gigabits required to service the state. Telstra has an estimated 20Gbps across 2 cables. To be competitive, it would require at least 10Gbps to make a serious dent.

zephyr writes...

Hmm, sounds like a great "last (300) mile" solution for the other 2%, but we're talking about multi-gigabits required to service the state.

Yeah, I realised how inadequate it would be as I typed in "20 Mbps"! One lucky Tasmanian gets ADSL2+!

Still, sounds like interesting technology.

Stan Devia writes...

I've been reading a bit about tropospheric scatter communications. I wonder if it would be feasible for Internode/Agile to bypass the cable altogether:

Good bounce at 3000ft too.

ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/...arnumber=1139496

Stan Devia writes...

One lucky Tasmanian gets ADSL2+!

Pick me, Pick me!

Still, once upon a time you could only get 9600 baud down a phone line, and look at us now ;-)

zephyr writes...

Still, once upon a time you could only get 9600 baud down a phone line, and look at us now ;-)

Well, your still only getting 9600 baud but its no longer casued by a limitation of your connection ;-)

Stan Devia writes...

I've been reading a bit about tropospheric scatter communications. I wonder if it would be feasible for Internode/Agile to bypass the cable altogether:

I worked on Troposcatter comms for seven years back in the sixties and seventies.

Unless you have a few hundred million dollars to spend for each terminal forget it.

Ours were in the 800 MHz band and 2.4 GHz band.

Quad diversity with dual 10KW Transmitters, four receivers and twin 120 foot dishes at each end

Isn't a monopoly illegal ?

Ken Richards. writes...

Isn't a monopoly illegal ?

Err, no.

Ken Richards. writes...

Isn't a monopoly illegal ?

hope not, it's a good game

<Soapbox>
Basslink.

Surely this is just one more example of why it really isn't a good idea to allow the Singapore Government to purchase more and more of Australian public infrastructure... As a Victorian, if someday the Singapore Government decides they don't so much like us (as many people don't), power, communications, energy, roads.. all sorts of stuff that is at least partially owned by them could become even more expensive. Don't take this as some sort of xenophobic 'them-foreigners-are-ruining-our-c­ ountry' rant, but more and more public infrastructure seems to be owned/financed/operated by entities that have precisely zero accountability to the public interest.

The fact that a solution to this problem sits dormant is beyond my comprehension; as far as I can make out the cable isn't lit because CitySpring gets $2M/annum while it isn't lit.. so there is zero incentive for them to do anything. (I may have this very wrong) Competition is of course an excellent thing, but where oh where in our laissez-faire market economy are we going to draw the line of public interest?

I wonder if some day the SG will try for a sizeable share in Telstra? (Unsure if it's classed as an 'Australian' company like QANTAS)

</Soapbox>

Alex-o-matic writes...

I wonder if some day the SG will try for a sizeable share in Telstra? (Unsure if it's classed as an 'Australian' company like QANTAS)

I believe that a very large portion of Telstra is already owned by large wealthy non Australians/companies that live/reside overseas (mainly USA). And has been since it was first partially privatized.

Alex-o-matic writes...

Surely this is just one more example of why it really isn't a good idea to allow the Singapore Government to purchase more and more of Australian public infrastructure..

Technically it's not the Singapore Government who has failed to act. And I'm not sure how a good 'ol dose of xenophobia really helps the situation.

What will help is the Tasmanian and Federal Governments action on ensuring that the cable is lit as soon as is legislatively possible. Because there is, no doubt, red tape preventing that exact occurrence, well, occurring.

And where the hell are the ACCC in all this? Hiding in a corner somewhere hoping this will all go away? Surely *someone* has lobbied them to act, at least in the interim, on pricing that has been acknowledged as "excessive" by virtually anyone that isn't Telstra.

And, perhaps, whilst your out to slam random infrastructure owners, perhaps you could point some of that angst at Telstra, who are happily charging a rate that will cease to exist the moment any other provider of capacity lights it up.

Simon Hackett writes...

I'm not sure - I'll try to have a clear answer on that by Tuesday. It'd obviously be nice if we could let existing customers on Home-High plans select a different plan at the same line speed. I'll see what we can do about achieving that.

Is there a clear answer?

Jonathan writes...

Is there a clear answer?

Is it Tuesday?

It's still Monday in SA. Chances are the answer won't necessarily be given at midnight Monday night, really. ;)

brendan. writes...

Is it Tuesday?

No, but it would be nice to have it as early as possible on the final day available to customers who might be uncertain about the details of a changeover.

(Although I notice upon re-reading that the wording of the press release indicates that plan change requests will not be accepted "from Tuesday"...)

Chances are the answer won't necessarily be given at midnight Monday night, really. ;)

You are quite likely correct. That said, nothing in my request requires an instantaneous response - I post at this hour merely out of personal convenience ;)

Bob the Kelpie writes...

Simon - or anyone else from Internode - can you clarify something for me? I wasn't too sure from reading the news release:

I can now provide more solid guidance on the questions you asked, and here goes:

Are existing Tasmanian customers able to change plans (up or down) still, or are we effectively locked into the plan we have right now?

I've asked the team making these changes to ensure that if Tasmanians are already on a HOME High-speed plan (8M or Extreme) then the plan changer will allow you to move between the available plans on your existing pricing table. i.e. you'll be able to move up and down in quota within that plan table.

But if you move *away* from an 8M or Extreme plan you won't be able to move back (except to the SOHO or BUSINESS versions) until the limitation is lifted in Tas in general.

E.g. I am on the Home-High-Power10 plan right now. Am I able to choose the Home-High-Power25 at some later date if I so wish?

As per the above: Yes.

Or if I downgrade to a 1500 plan, will I be able to return to an 8000 plan later?

No, not until the limitation is lifted in the state in general (though you'll be able to move back to the SOHO version of the plan if you wish in the meantime)

Lastly, if the 8 Mbit plans change for the better in the future (as Simon has hinted at in another thread) will existing Tasmanian customers be frozen out of these improvements?

No, not if they are already on an 8M plan at the point at which those improvements are announced.

lostme writes...

Hmm Tassie losing plans from ISP's due to expensive backhaul... NT next?

No. NT works differently.

For Telstra Wholesale ports, Telstra feeds the data from those ports out in Adelaide (not Darwin). In effect, the NT is treated, by Telstra, like a set of country towns in far northern SA, rather than being treated as a separate state/territory.

This anomaly is the only reason anyone other than BigPond offers ADSL in the NT at all - because the backhaul costs to put our own PoP up in Darwin and/or Alice are so enormous that they make the Tasmanian monopoly rent backhaul look cheap.

This is also the reason there is zero ADSL2+ expansion by 'Not BigPond' in the NT.

Simon

artax writes...

Its a pity that the 8mgbit connections are, for the time being, getting discontinued. but with all the issues with the late night latency issues i can understand it.

Just as a clarification - for an extra $20/mth, they're still available - reflecting the delta in our real costs (i.e. you can still select a SOHO plan).

Of course we will remove the HOME plan limitations immediately that our economics improve.

Jonathan writes...

No, but it would be nice to have it as early as possible on the final day available to customers who might be uncertain about the details of a changeover.

FYI, the limitation is slated to be deployed in our production systems within just a few hours. If you are thinking of signing up to an 8M or Extreme plan in Tasmania on the HOME table (or changing plans to select one) - right now would be your last chance to do so for a while - as per the press release sent out on Friday last week.

Simon

Simon Hackett writes...

Just as a clarification - for an extra $20/mth, they're still available - reflecting the delta in our real costs (i.e. you can still select a SOHO plan).

Thanks for doing it this way Simon... I know it annoys a few people but it has generated a lot of publicity. At least allowing the SOHO and business plans means it isn't completely unavailable here, and it means the installed DSLAMs aren't a waste.

Always Waiting writes...

Err, no.

Thanks for the answer.

I am not in Tasmania . If the Australian government is going to provide broadband for everyone things could get interesting.

Simon Hackett writes...

I can now provide more solid guidance on the questions you asked, and here goes:

Thanks for the reply Simon. I'm no fanboi but the way Internode have handled the necessity to cut back prices is exactly why I'll stick with Internode for a long time to come: you're refusing new Tasmanian customers out of necessity but then supporting your existing customers, IMO, 100%. I could just as likely have been frozen at my current plan but instead I feel I still have some sense of control over which plan to be on.

Thanks Simon.

Could someone point me to a link whereby it says that Tasmanians are excluded from the Internode up to 8mb Home plans, and not the press release link that was listed on the site the other day, please.

I'm trying to determine at what part in the information/sign-up process that someone in Tasmania finds out that they are unable to be supplied a plan that is available to every other adsl enabled phone line.

I just put a couple of South Launceston exchange phone numbers into the online number checker and it said that the Internode ADSL Standard and ADSL Plus plans were available. (yes, there is fine print underneath, but that relates to not being able to get a service that is indicated as being available more for technology reasons, rather than this particular one, that being a policy reason. Also, perhaps the website page/tool/s hasn't been fine tuned enough yet. It's been tweaked a bit, because it mentions the ADSL Plus info, just nothing about it not being available in Tassie for the Home plans)

From the email I received today from Internode, and reading the press release that is at the link in that email I couldn't see any info at all pertaining to Tasmania.

Maybe I missed it? But if I haven't, why isn't Internode telling its current customer base about this significant change in order availability?

Seems like a golden opportunity to get a message out to a large number of people, the majority of who are not effected by it. And then when people ask why, you have a classic entry point into what is going on in the wholesale market place, and where the industry could be within 5 years...

Man, this sucks. I hate Telstra aeven more now :/

I can't really recommend Internode to anyone now... can I?

Tassie always ends up getting the crap end of the stick lol

Stupid low population, etc.

NightCabbage writes...

I can't really recommend Internode to anyone now... can I?

Sure you can, you just have to sell'em harder on the merits of a SOHO account.

Tassie always ends up getting the crap end of the stick lol

Unfortunately you guys have a get out of jail free card, yet the Government misplaced it.

h0mer writes...

Seems like a golden opportunity to get a message out to a large number of people, the majority of who are not effected by it.

Actually the majority are were affected by it, as the majority are were subsidising TAS as mentioned by Mark Newton in this thread:
/forum-replies.cfm?t=952827#r9
Tassie - squandered broadband opps
Of course not. But it's rolled into the operational cost of our network, such that customers in WA, SA, NT, Vic, NSW, ACT and Qld all end up subsidizing the cost of servicing Tasmania. And not just a little bit of subsidization, either. The impact of the Melb-Hobart link is a massive distortion in our cost structures.

Simon Hackett writes...

ust as a clarification - for an extra $20/mth, they're still available - reflecting the delta in our real costs (i.e. you can still select a SOHO plan).

thanks for the clarification there.... must talk with the misses about the xtra $20 a month...

NightCabbage writes...

I can't really recommend Internode to anyone now... can I?

Most of the people who need to ask tend to be prime candidates for the $40 512-Starter plan, I've found.

Still, its not like there are any other decent offerings. Netspace doesn't do it, and iiNet's prices are shocking - comparing Node SOHO 8mbit to iiNet's regular 8Mbit plans:

iiNet / Internode
4+4 for $80 / 10 for $95
10+10 for $100 / 25 for $105
15+30 for $130 / 55 for $135

And you get the static IP for "free" with Node :P

www.abc.net.au/news/stor...5/08/2238588.htm

The Basslink saga has hit the news again. However, it is from what could be a welcome angle.

I guess the word needs to be spread, if it hasn't already.

<--- see quip

Chuq writes...

<--- see quip

and the thread in the broadband forum about squandered ops.

So what is the current plan of attack, and can us mainlanders help?

rocket writes...

So what is the current plan of attack, and can us mainlanders help?

It would be great if someone can spur the Melbourne papers into action? Someone in that fine state will be getting a LOT of transit business out of Aurora when it comes on line... This is an economic benefit they're missing out on too.

On a wider level, every ISP in the country who services Tas averages out their backhaul costs, so you're all, indirectly, subsidising your fellow tasmanian subscribers.

Ask your ISPs to get to work on lodging access disputes for Bass Strait transit, it is a declared service, yet no one is disputing the costs being charged. The ACCC has a pricing model, they're standing by the phone, waiting to take your call... Call now, free set of steak knives, yada yada. ;-)

zephyr writes...

Someone in that fine state will be getting a LOT of transit business out of Aurora when it comes on line...

It's kind of weird to think that 500,000 people will be served by a single cable which runs through Traralgon...

just think, anyone from tassie annoys you.. pull out an axe

Zaeed writes...

just think, anyone from tassie annoys you.. pull out an axe

Geez, what a comedian!!!

NOT!!

Chuq writes...

It's kind of weird to think that 500,000 people will be served by a single cable which runs through Traralgon...

If that's the population of Tasmania, then possibly about half to 2 thirds would go through that cable. The rest would go through the existing one.

And the feed/backhaul from Traralgon to Melbourne would have already been worked out. It wouldn't be that much of a big deal to sort out.

rocket writes...

The rest would go through the existing one.

there's two actually, both Telstra, both either 2.5Gbps, or 10Gbps (ie rumoured to have been upgraded)

Basslink is 4 pairs, each pair capable of at least 10Gbps, possibly higher, and that's before you consider using DWDM or similar.

There's plenty of headroom for the short-medium term, they don't have to try and bring it all online at once.

zephyr writes...

there's two actually, both Telstra, both either 2.5Gbps, or 10Gbps (ie rumoured to have been upgraded)

I stand corrected.

So on that basis, even less traffic would go through Traralgon, so all's sweet. :-)

It looks like Rod Bruem is dissing Simon Hackett. I look forward to seeing Simon's response to this blog on NWAT.

www.nowwearetalking.com....oadband-disgrace

Gaz Iggi writes...

www.nowwearetalking.com....oadband-disgrace

Seriously, Telstra needs to add an extra word to the end of that URL (just before the dot com). One that has four letters and starts with s and ends in t.