I have just brought the phone line under the house to the end of my house.
Its then running side by side with a powerlead for about 2 metres in a condute.
They are very close to each other.

I'm trying to figure out why my broadband keeps spiking when playing online games, when it wasn't before.

Either.
A) I have connected the telephone line dodgily
B) My modem is over heating - tried things already
C) My computer is over heating - tried things already
D) The phoneline is getting interference from the powerlead

But its not constant only everynow and then and sometimes for 5-10seconds.

Any ideas?

I doubt that the problem is due to the proximity of the power wire. I am an electrician and I frequently see power and phone/data run in close proximity, particularly in multichannel ducting. Most of the ducting is aluminium which provides poor magnetic shielding but some of it is plastic which provides no inductive shielding whatsoever. Interferance problems are rare.

As an experiment, unsaddle the conduit and let it hang down away from the other cable for a day to see if it makes a difference

Cheers,

jayendra writes...

Its then running side by side with a powerlead for about 2 metres in a condute.

Do you mean one's in conduit and the other's outside the conduit or are they both in the same conduit?

A) I have connected the telephone line dodgily
D) The phoneline is getting interference from the powerlead

I take it you're not licensed otherwise you would know about this.

They are both in the condute.

Power lead is just an extension lead running from the wall socket up the condute to the power board (don't have to be licensed for this)

All I did was take a phone line up the condute and attach it to a new smaller phone port (krone).

Nothing illegal there. But may have to check the krone box (blue and white wires) to see if they are all good.

i will try the experiment of separating them - and also try new phone cords and another modem.

Thanks for the help

jayendra writes...

Nothing illegal there

The regulations would disagree with you there

While were talking about legalities,
Is it illegal to bury a standard CAT5 cable in the ground?
or does it need to be in a conduit?
Same with on the outside of the house, need to be in conduit?
or can it be tacked there with those electricians clips?

data/ phone cabling MUST be separated from electricity.

packetstorm4 writes...

bury a standard CAT5 cable in the ground?
or does it need to be in a conduit?

it needs to be in conduit.

on the outside of the house, need to be in conduit?
or can it be tacked there with those electricians clips?

permanent vs temporary debate.

No such things as temporary cabling.

All cabling must be installed in a permanent and legal manner, even if it is only there for 2 days.

100% correct.

Data and power should never be run in the same conduit.

thanks KEK I will run 2 conduits

Illegal?
I really don't see how rewiring a phone cable can be illegal - It's not the one off the road which I think everyone is complaining about - its just from one phone port to another - and I changed the old big square one to a new little one.

:)

jayendra writes...

Illegal?
I really don't see how rewiring a phone cable can be illegal - It's not the one off the road which I think everyone is complaining about - its just from one phone port to another - and I changed the old big square one to a new little one.

ANY cabling like that MUST be done by a registered cabler. it is not a matter of what it does, it still connects into the phone exchange somewhere down the line, so you need to be licensed.

jayendra writes...

I really don't see how rewiring a phone cable can be illegal

Time to remove those rose coloured glasses

and I changed the old big square one to a new little one.

Making you liable up to a $13000 fine , employ a legally permitted person to sort out your hash and be aware the fine is not the least of your problems , you are liable for all damage to the exchange and lines between when caught , it may seem unreasonable but you can't legaly mess with services these days .

How hard / How long does it take to become a registered cabler?

That is full on!

thanks for the info antec.

jayendra writes...

I have just brought the phone line under the house to the end of my house.

with a powerlead for about 2 metres in a condute

Either.
A) I have connected the telephone line dodgilyillegaly

Pull it out and tie the wire around your little finger as a reminder to call a registered cabler to redo it properly. I suggest to pull it out yourself so that the horrified cabler doesn't try to wrap it round another part of your person!

Under house = concealled = not DIY
In conduit = concealled = not DIY
In conduit with power cable and no physical barrier = highly illegal
Sockets = permanent cabling = not DIY

And if you still plan to ask how to fix it yourself, see forum-replies.cfm?t=767252

limewire writes...

No such things as temporary cabling.

Crap! What do you think a patch lead is if it's not temporary?

packetstorm4 writes...

How hard / How long does it take to become a registered cabler?

Take a look at this page: acma.gov.au/WEB/STANDARD/pc=PC_1471

You need 6 months training, and then complete a course (which costs up to $1000 bucks, off the top of my memory). Then you can pay the annual fee, or something to stay registered.

I am told by a mate that the accompanying test to the course is mainly a thing about legislation, and doesn't have much practical work.

packetstorm4 writes...

How hard / How long does it take to become a registered cabler?

Do a cabling course and have 6 months experience working with a licensed cabler. Qualified electricians get to skip the 6 months bit because they are already expected to have some idea about running cables in a tradesman like manner.

Cheers,

Heh beaten

I still don't think what I did was illegal.... it can't be!!!

the phone port that is there (connected by the black telstra cable from the street) is still intact haven't touched that. I connected another phone cable to that inside the house with a normal phone conection - no rewiring. Then ran that under the house like a normal extension cable. Then pulled that up through a hole and connected a new phone plug onto it - because it had an old connection.

The power cord is an extension cord you can buy at the supermarket.

The conduit is a box to conceal the cables to a hanging box shelf.

The only recabling I have done is the change of my phone extension cable which is 20 metres, from an old big one to a new smaller plug one one. I did unplug the phone cable before rewiring.

I really can't see why that is illegal but any ways I don't do electrics so you know best. And my mate who is an electrician always gives me advice.

thanks

packetstorm4 writes...

Is it illegal to bury a standard CAT5 cable in the ground?
or does it need to be in a conduit?

Cat5 cable is not designed for exterior purposes.

I have solved two Linesync problems due to phone lines running alongside power cords -along skirting boards.As in typical run from wall plate to 5 gang outlet.I'm not an expert in Induction fields but It was running @2 metres and that length seemed to knock it over

What happens if I plug my vacuum cleaner into a normal power outlet via an extension power cable , and I have in my house EOP, (Ethernet over Powerlines).

The extension power cable is now carrying telecommunications data, and therefore must be installed by a licensed cabler.
Have I committed an offence.
According to the ACMAs website , I have.

mauried writes...

What happens if I plug my vacuum cleaner into a normal power outlet via an extension power cable , and I have in my house EOP, (Ethernet over Powerlines).

No problem with plug-in leads, either 240v or CAT5/6 as long as it can be considerred a temporary connection. If you got your vacuum cleaner lead and ran it through a wall cavity before plugging it in you might be right about breaching the rules.

Cheers,

jayendra writes...

Power lead is just an extension lead running from the wall socket up the condute to the power board (don't have to be licensed for this)

What you did is illegal because the power cord is not open to view; and as it is installed under the house and inside a conduit it would be classified as permanent wiring. Extension cords are not acceptable or designed for that usage under AS3000.

Plus, when you ran the power cord inside the conduit you would have had to disconnect and reconnect one end; did you then do a proper "polarity" test on the cable? Somehow, I don't think so.

Nothing illegal there.

How did you come to that conclusion?

Illegal parts in orange for your concern (and other DIY'ers)

jayendra writes...

the phone port that is there (connected by the black telstra cable from the street) is still intact haven't touched that. I connected another phone cable to that inside the house with a normal phone conection - no rewiring. Then ran that under the house like a normal extension cable. Then pulled that up through a hole and connected a new phone plug onto it - because it had an old connection
The conduit is a box to conceal the cables to a hanging box shelf.
So is it conduit or ducting, and if ducting open channel or enclosed. Skirting duct in office installation have seperated channels to maintain a physical barrier between 240V and data comms.

Parts that remove ACMA compliance and hence the ability to legally connect it to the network in orange:
the phone port that is there (connected by the black telstra cable from the street) is still intact haven't touched that. I connected another phone cable to that inside the house with a normal phone conection - no rewiring. Then ran that under the house like a normal extension cable. Then pulled that up through a hole and connected a new phone plug onto it - because it had an old connection

I really can't see why that is illegal

Network integrity, worker and end user safety, network performance. Look at what it did you your ADSL to see an example of the latter being affected.

And my mate who is an electrician always gives me advice.

What's your mates cabler registration number? If he doesn't have one he isn't legally qualified to advise on, or legally permitted to supervise or do without supervision, data and comms cabling.

Rusty_Gold writes...

Cat5 cable is not designed for exterior purposes.

Amazing what conduit and building exspanda-foam can do. :D

Wow that was very very informing. I feel as if I have opened up a whole new world of information both negative and positive - I'm sure my Dad who is a builder had no idea about those rules.

The conduit is just a 1 and a half meter piece of square plastic that I stuck on the wall (its visible in the room). Now I know its illegal to put an extension cord in there and I will take that out because it might be causing sync problems ( and its illegal).

I also know that fiddling with a telephone cord is illegal also. And also crawling under my house and laying cable.

I really am stunned. truly. and I'm not known for being sarcastic but that really shocks me that such a fickle thing in the home could and can have such major implications.

thanks everyone

BTW - powercord is not under the house and I didn't have to chop anything, it just goes from a wall socket up the plastic square thingy and to the top of the cupboard - I'm sure that we misunderstood that.

My friend did the phone port last time - it was at the other end of the house and he just put a new one in - when I moved that to the other end of the house I had to rewire it because It would fit down that hole in the floor - do you get it now? I know that's probably illegal but what do you do if you don't have a phone adapter? and you new phone doesn't have the same plug - you improvise and then you post on a forum and find a whole bunch of knowleagable people that feed your brain information. I love the internet.

Gnuthad writes...

Crap! What do you think a patch lead is if it's not temporary?

According to acma definition patch cords & fly leads are not cables....they are simply patch cords and fly leads. I hope that makes sense.
According to acma definition a cable = a building cable (or the hard wired stuff)
According to acma regs patch cords and fly leads are temporary devices that can be fitted by consumers but not used as building cable or hard wired (not to be secreted inside walls, under floors, etc)
I would imagine that the same definition applies in the electrical regs (that an extension power lead is not an electrical cable).

jayendra writes...

Wow that was very very informing.
here's all the info you need to know forum-replies.cfm?t=767252

And also crawling under my house and laying cable.
you can crawl under your house and lay eggs, speaker cable, doorbell cable, tv cable, but best to stay away from power and phone cables.

I love the internet.
I don't think you'll get any disagreements with that one...

jayendra writes...

Its then running side by side with a powerlead for about 2 metres
well you're not the only one that does that....someone else is also doing it: s188.photobucket.com/alb...nt=datajob1c.jpg

junctionbox writes...

omeone else is also doing it:

And there's a nice shot of un-insulated power wires running between 2 boxes (I assume they contain control gear for some metal halide lights or something similar).

Surely that has to be something that should be communicated to your local safety office.

11T.Co writes...

And there's a nice shot of un-insulated power wires running between 2 boxes
hmmm...I'm not sure what you are looking at there...are you refering to the pic I linked or perhaps another pic in the album?...can you elaborate? I must confess I was so focused on the (bad) state of the phone cables that I didn't pick up on the electricals.

control gear for some metal halide lights or something similar
well there were some downlights installed

looking at that pic I would have to say it looks like who ever did that wiring should be shot, as I doubt it would in the building code never mind other code violations under other electrical and comms laws...

exposed cables like that should be in conduit pipes with separate pipes for lights, power for equipment and comms cable..

If you ever have a fire don't expect a insurance Co. to pay out as they will blame faulty cable laid by the owner as cause of fire..

I would call that semipermanent infrastructure not patch cables..

I have been reading this last night and again this morning and am horrified at the way a) everyone is speaking to a poor bloke who just asked a question and b) the implication of what you are saying, I admit that I am not in the game anymore, I was Austel licensed until october 2005 then with the new open registration changes I didn't bother anymore, the registration fees just seemed to grow too much, anyway the point I was trying to come to is this: The phone system where you hook into the Telstra Network requires a licensed cabler as if you mess it up badly (I strugle to work out what you could do that would mess it up that badly?) COULD impact on the network and other users, however a home ethernet with a clearly defined boundry (i.e your home) has no posible way of damaging any public/private infrastructure, I get the whole must be licensed to do it commercially, but I have wired up ethernet at my home, (I also wired the electricity and my electrician just came through and connected to the supply) and it sounds like from what your saying that it was illegal, I just don't understand the why (other than the blatant revenue raising) assume for a second that I untwisted the pairs and had a 5cm tail to the back of the patch (something that you will see in many commercially installed office blocks) and as a result the NEXT is high, thats my problem, it doesn't affect telstra, or anyone else.

An additional question I would like to raise is has this been tested in court? The Govt can make any law it wants but it must be tested in a Court of Law to see how it impacts on other laws etc, I can think of at least 2 that would impact on this. Does anyone know of a non-commercial entity being charged?

Just my thoughts

Zak

junctionbox writes...

I'm not sure what you are looking at there...are you refering to the pic I linked or perhaps another pic in the album?...can you elaborate

Photo #3 of 17 in the album, if you look at the bottom of the 2 hanging boxes you'll see a red and a black wire joining the two. To me, they look like ordinary single insulated 240V wires and they appear to be the only wires coming out of the right hand box.

I assume the boxes are some kind of control gear for lighting (mercury vapour or most likely metal halide) and any wiring coming of such boxes should be double insulated.

11T.Co writes...

a red and a black wire joining the two. ahh yes....now I see it!....you said un-insulated so I was looking for bare copper....I would have called them unsheathed...but anyway I didn't notice it was 240v earlier. I thought maybe it was low voltage stuff but as I said I was so focused on the state of the comms cabling I didn't take any note of other issues. But in truth I don't know the regs relating to electrical. I might bring it up with the management.

Zakalwe writes...

it doesn't affect telstra, or anyone else.
what??? bad installation practices don't affect others? what a load of crap! What about the safety of all those that live in or visit your house and the contractors that may work there in future? What you are implying is akin to saying that while it's not okay to drink and drive on the freeway it is on some quiet backstreet. A good tradie will have good standards no matter what the job entails...commercial or domestic!
I was Austel licensed until october 2005 then with the new open registration changes I didn't bother anymore IMO you made the right choice!

Zakalwe writes...

Just my thoughts

I agree with what you wrote. For example (and I wasn't aware of the laws before) I have run some Cat5 through my wall to the other side of the room to where my computer is. Now according to the FAQ if I had run this along my skirting board it would have been fine, but because I poked a tiny hole in my wall and pushed the cable through there its now illegal?

The Govt can make any law it wants but it must be tested in a Court of Law

Absolutely, they'd have to prove that the same cable in the wall presented a far greater risk than a cable running across the floor.

junctionbox writes...

what??? bad installation practices don't affect others? what a load of crap! What about the safety of all those that live in or visit your house and the contractors that may work there in future? What you are implying is akin to saying that while it's not okay to drink and drive on the freeway it is on some quiet backstreet. A good tradie will have good standards no matter what the job entails...commercial or domestic!

Wow! I love this concept, please explain how a visitor/contractor coming to my house could possibly have their safety compromised? Could it possibly be if they fell through the floor and hung themself by the cat5e run through the cavity?

Although I agree that in a comeercial situation a 'tradie' may do a better job (though to be honest I have seen, in many years of network admin work, some cabling practices performed by professionals that is questionable, even Krone ADC 20/20 qualified installers) because they are required to warrant and therefore the expectation is there that they test it, in a home environemnt where all you are talking is Cat5 local between upto say 5-10 machines (including wireless nodes) even if I wrapped the leads around every power lead in the house, ALL that would happen would be that MY network performance would be degraded, the electricity grid would not be affected and neither would telstra.

the ACMA would need to prove that my personal network could have any potential impact any public/private networks. The ONLY thing I could possibly think would potentially cause an issue would be if you did it and then sold the house, then the owner builder laws would come into effect where I would be liable if anything happened within 7years and then would need to get a licensed installer to repair it (as it was no longer my house)

Zak

Zakalwe writes...

The Govt can make any law it wants but it must be tested in a Court of Law

daas writes...

Absolutely, they'd have to prove that the same cable in the wall presented a far greater risk than a cable running across the floor.

Wrong in both cases.

When the regulations are passed by Parliament and released to the public they are Law; the only thing they need to demonstrate is that you did not comply with those regulations.

In this instance, the risk is irrelevant because the regulations only state that it is illegal to carry out certain installations without the proper licensing.

Arguing about the risk would get you nowhere.

Edit:

junctionbox writes...

I would have called them unsheathed...

And that's what I should have called them too, but the brain was thinking the wires should be "double insulated" and the rest is history ;)

11T.Co writes...

Wrong in both cases.

When the regulations are passed by Parliament and released to the public they are Law; the only thing they need to demonstrate is that you did not comply with those regulations.

In this instance, the risk is irrelevant because the regulations only state that it is illegal to carry out certain installations without the proper licensing.

Arguing about the risk would get you nowhere.

:-) A budding Lawyer.

This will become a circular argument, it will end up being the same as video taping from TV, originally it was a 'law' that you couldn't do it, yet for private use it was never prosecuted. I have done some searches through both the ACMA website and Austlii and am struggling to find a case where it has been 'tested' in court. I agree that the govt need only enact a piece of legislation for it to be considered law but the check of any/all laws is court, that is the balance that ensures that the govt is really enacting laws in the public interest. Until that happens, I personally will not be changing any of my practices. I respect the right of the govt to legislate against this style of thing, but I would argue the definition of harm and the definition of temporary, a corporate install is warranted for 20years after that it could/would be removed and upgraded, that sounds temporary to me, I think the definition of 'in wall' being the acid test for permancy is ridiculous dry wall can be removed, if I hinge my walls or make some other way for me to get into the cavity then does that make it no longer permanent? if I remove all my gyprock and run it then is it temporary up until I put gyprock up? what a joke.

I think that this is a simplistic law enacted (as most from the ACMA seem to be) as a knee jerk reaction with little thought about the target and solely derived to increase revenue. There is no safety concerns, there is no harm to private/public infrastructure, I will continue to research this and try and find a case where a citizen has been prosecuted for this.

Insurance may be an issue, but again I would like to see the reason that they refuse a policy, if it is based around an increased fire risk as has been suggested earlier in this thread (I skimmed, I may be imagining it) then that again, I believe would need to be tested.

Zak

Zakalwe writes...

:-) A budding Lawyer.

Not quite; just too many years dealing with national and international contracts, as well as interpreting Standards and Regulations to ensure the companies I work for (including my own) don't get their fingers burned :(

This will become a circular argument

With luck we'll be rescued by a real lawyer before that happens ;)

I have done some searches through both the ACMA website and Austlii and am struggling to find a case where it has been 'tested' in court.

I've never looked for confirmed prosecutions in that industry but I expect that any prosecutions would be as successful as those applied in the electrical industry for carrying out ­ unlicensed electrical work.

By the way, the ACMA regulations must also be taken into the context of the Telecommunications Act if you want to know what you can and cannot do.

11T.Co writes...

Not quite; just too many years dealing with national and international contracts, as well as interpreting Standards and Regulations to ensure the companies I work for (including my own) don't get their fingers burned :(

With luck we'll be rescued by a real lawyer before that happens ;)

I've never looked for confirmed prosecutions in that industry but I expect that any prosecutions would be as successful as those applied in the electrical industry for carrying out ­ unlicensed electrical work.

By the way, the ACMA regulations must also be taken into the context of the Telecommunications Act if you want to know what you can and cannot do.

Now thats is my point, why would they be as successful as those applied to the electrical industry? Electrical work is not discreet,as in, it interacts with the public energy grid, electricity is also incredibly dangerous, if you do it wrong you can electrocute yourself or someone else, ethernet is neither of these things, it does not carry power (as a standard, I know you can use a power injector to ran power over cat5) and it does not interface with any public network. I don't doubt that what you say may be word for word what is written, what I question is 1) the validity and 2) the thought that has been put into it, I read the guidelines (and that is all they are as far as I can see, though I have still to finish reading the legislation) and they do not seem to have a definition of Temp Vs Perm or many other points. I believe and I will have to write a letter to the ACMA for clarification, that this is an un enforceable law akin to tapeing TV shows (now recognised as time shifting and subsequently legal).

Zak

why would they be as successful as those applied to the electrical industry? Electrical work is not discreet,as in, it interacts with the public energy grid, electricity is also incredibly dangerous

Electricity is very dangerous but there are a couple of different points to deal with here. The first is "risk" and the second "regulation".

A data or telecommunication cabling installation can present a risk if incorrectly carried out and many people don't understand that the risk may not be immediately apparent.

For example, a minor failure or mechanical damage to an improperly installed cable may result in a lethal voltage being applied to the cable if it is installed in the vicinity of power cables. There is then a a chance for this lethal voltage to be transmitted to a person working remotely from the installation. This is a risk.

With regulations the issue is far less complex, people can choose to comply or not comply with them; it is a personal choice. If they don't comply, the ACMA has the power to fine an individual as shown ­ here

11T.Co writes...

a minor failure or mechanical damage to an improperly installed cable may result in a lethal voltage being applied to the cable if it is installed in the vicinity of power cables

you've nailed it! It's called separation. And a huge part of the ACMA comms rules are directed towards separation from power and other hazardous objects (gas, hot water, etc). In the case of the pic I linked to and the OP's question (power and phone running together) there is always a risk that things may turn bad. In my pic it can be clearly seen that phone cables are intertwined with power. Power cables get warm, they sometimes get hot, they sometimes degrade, and in the worst case scenario they sometimes burn or arc out. Of course they're not supposed because they're protected by fuses, cct breakers, etc, but faults do happen. If the phone cables inadvertantly contact power then that can be conducted back thru the MDF and into the Telstra network - not to mention the clients LAN and PABX equipment. The separation regs are an attempt to safegaurd against these issues. Ignorance, indifference, or just plain attitude will never make bad installation practices good.

Right, in 11 years of Network admin 6 of them as an Austel licensed cabler, I have never seen a situation where this could have happened, maybe you guys have seen worse cases, however if that is what the guidelines are based on then good on em. Personally I think that this is such a remote possibility as to be almost laughable, cat5 MAY be able to carry that sort of voltage but I would expect it would melt very quickly.

Honestly its not that hard, I have heard that 90% of the new course is all about the legislation, which is the reason I have not upgraded my certs.

Obviously Australia is following the American lead of stupid pointless legislation to restrict people from doing anything.

Zakalwe writes...

Personally I think that this is such a remote possibility as to be almost laughable, cat5 MAY be able to carry that sort of voltage but I would expect it would melt very quickly.

I have news for you, CAT5 conductors are bigger than a 15A fuse wire; a lot of current will flow before something melts.

Look at the conductor size in a CAT5 cable and then go and have look at a piece of fuse wire used in domestic porcelain fuse holders if you don't believe it.

On the subject of laughing at remote possibilities of something happening; irresponsible people cause or are involved in accidents, and responsible people follow the rules because an accident or an incident is not a laughable matter.

only thing I have ever heard of happening with comms cabling is when kids jam their fingers into modular sockets, get them stuck then cop a belt when someone calls the house (i have copped that 75volts plenty of times but it might hurt a 3 year old)

other than that, I haven't heard of anything but the potential is there. There are people out there who make far more money that me who write the rules to which i must abide to be a cabler, thats the fact of life. ACMA hand out big fines too.

junctionbox writes...

not to be secreted inside walls, under floors, etc

Does that mean installing CAT5 in the roof is illegal?

the way i look at it if you wish to run a internet and telephony network throughout your home, my suggestion would be to get a cabler in and get a quote for upgrade of existing infrastructure, I would also get sparky in to check out the house hold electrical system to see if it is up to today's regs as some older homes might not be up to spec to handle the new electrical requirement of the existing powered infrastructure, nothing worse than blowing a fuse or circuit breaker because you have overloaded the power circuit...

all house wiring whether it be electrical, telephony or network infrastructure should exceed minimum code requirements of today's current rules and regs regarding all wiring codes within your home..

11T.Co writes...

If they don't comply, the ACMA has the power to fine an individual as shown ­ here

The most interesting line to me is this..

Authorised ACMA officers can issue a telecommunications infringement notice with an associated monetary penalty to an individual or body corporate that has committed an offence against the provisions mentioned in section 453A of the Telecommunications Act, in lieu of having the matter heard in a court.

An infringement notice must be sent within 10 months of the alleged offence occurring.

Does this mean if the "offence" is deemed to have occured more than 10 months ago no infringement notice will be issued?

insomniac-jc writes...

Does this mean if the "offence" is deemed to have occured more than 10 months ago no infringement notice will be issued?

My reading of this would be similar to that of an "On the spot" speeding fine. To issue an "Infringement Notice", they have to do it within 10 months. Outside this time they need to take you to court.

junctionbox writes...

well you're not the only one that does that....someone else is also doing it:

Looks simular to the ceiling of a place I know in Melbourne!

As to Zakalwe's comments, I have had to do a 'tidy up'job after a qualified cabler did a job for me in Brisbane. Another shorted out a telephone service, with wire off-cuts not cleaned off the MDF.
On the other hand, I was asked by a friend to look at the data cabling in the house he had bought (building inspections do not cover elec/data in any real way). I had a look and the job was very bad. He got a cabler in to quote repairs and he would not repair, only replace. After negotiations, seller had to pay back about 2.5K, as it was sold as cabled.

Magus writes...

Looks simular to the ceiling of a place I know
sorry, but location remains cofidential!

'tidy up'job after a qualified cabler
I've been doing that for years! The purpose of my pics is to show the difference between "acceptable" and "unacceptable" and to try to expose some of the substandard work that some tradies (and DIY's) do. While a substandard job (comms, electrical, plumbing...whatever) may be perfectly functional it is not acceptable from a professional point of view and may prove to be unsafe over time. I hope that by showing these examples (watch this space - more to come) I can encourage/influence some people to lift their game.

Zakawe writes...

Although I agree that in a comeercial situation a 'tradie' may do a better job (though to be honest I have seen, in many years of network admin work, some cabling practices performed by professionals that is questionable,
there is broad spectrum between acceptable and unacceptable or good and bad install practices. At which end of the scale we choose to sit is our own decision.

the last time i had a phone line installed the linesman put the exposed cable in some conduit and terminate it at the end so i could connect a telephone into it...

any type of long running cable should be placed in conduit for any semipermanent cable you have exposed, a. its a safety measure. b. it stops vermin like mice and rats from use the cable like a toilet, as their urine over time has been known to destroy plastic casing that covers your cable... niot to mention them chewing on the cable aswell...

Gnuthad writes...

What do you think a patch lead is if it's not temporary?

If it's certified then a legal patch lead , if you make it then I expect it wont meet specs

Zakalwe writes...

Honestly its not that hard, I have heard that 90% of the new course is all about the legislation, which is the reason I have not upgraded my certs.

You were misinformed , and when the new legislation passes you will be upgrading or wont continue to work for long on the old ticket .

Zakalwe writes...

Does anyone know of a non-commercial entity being charged?

I work in the electrical industry in Queensland and whenever someone or some business is charged with an offense it becomes an item of conversation. When a breach of regulations gets reported the first port of call is the Electrical Safety Office who investigate the situation and hand out penalties up to and including loss of license. The only situations that I know of the ESO recommending legal charges are when personal injury has occurred. There have been only a couple of times I am aware of that bad workmanship has resulted in an injury from a "communications network" and these have coincidentally allways been related to the phone network and never a computer network. I can remember one situation where an electrical circuit was run through the same hole in a top plate as the phone, not a problem on its own until termites decided to move in. Termites seem to have a taste for the low density PVC that modern cables are insulated with. As luck would have it the copper phone pair that became live were not in use and were not terminated at the telstra pillar but were terminated at the old 610 phone outlet. This was not a problem either until one day the elderly home owner unplugged the phone and plugged in a phone extension lead somehow resulting in an electric shock that put them in hospital. This resulted in the electrician facing legal charges. This situation could just as easily have been a computer network as the phone network.

When damage to property occurs due to poor workmanship there have been many situations where fines are imposed and a few where licenses have been revoked but I can't recall any resulting in legal charges. This is interesting because some instances have resulted in many many thousands of dollars damage and though lawsuits are frequent in such situations legal charges don't seem to follow. The issue of property damage has made me remember a situation many years ago where substantial damage was done to phone equipment in a Telstra exchange due to lightning strike and it was determined that illegal phone wiring in a customers house had contributed substantially to the damage. Apparently Telstra equipment is generally pretty lightning resistant and strikes close to exchanges rarely cause a problem and this is partly due to the way the outgoing copper pairs are earthed. One side of the pair is always earthed at the exchange end and never in the field. Normal electrical wiring practice is that the neutral is earthed at the substation and also at each customers switchboard. It seems that an electrician who was unfamiliar with phone wiring regulations decided to install some phone wiring in a house. With a normal multimeter he would have found one side of the pair was earthed at the exchange and must have decided it would be a good thing to earth it at the customers end as well. This would not cause a problem during normal circumstances however it does cause a problem if lightning strikes the ground either near the exchange or near the house. When lightning strikes the ground there is a local increase in the voltage potential of the ground at that location as well as everything connected to ground. This can be hundreds and sometimes even thousands of volts. We do not normally notice this voltage rise because everything at the same location is at the same voltage relative to each other. We would notice it however if we were hanging on to a wire that was connected to earth some kilometers away. This caused equipment in the exchange to release its magic smoke and Telstra techs started investigating. It didn't take too long to discover one of the cables was still earthed after it was removed from earth at the exchange and the customers house that the cable led to was inspected. The connection to earth was found and the style of workmanship and the testimony of the owner made it clear it had been done by an electrician. The telstra legal eagles were all set to recover some of their lost capital but fortunately for the electrician involved there had been electrical work done at the house by more than one company in the preceding years and the owner was unsure of who had put in the extra phone point.

That is all pretty long winded and possibly boring but the short answer is that nobody has been charged with a computer network cabling offence that I know of, however the potential is there and is almost certain if anyone ever suffers an injury. The electrical and comms regulations are draughted so that a dangerous situation can't be caused by a single fault but only by a combination of them. When unqualified people do their own thing this redundant safety is often neglected and though the installation may be safe when new the first line of defence is already gone. The rules are there for people's safety, not to raise revenue or make life hard for them

Cheers,

Overboard writes...

Normal electrical wiring practice is that the neutral is earthed at the substation and also at each customers switchboard.

correction: at the street mounted step down transformer
delta --> star
where star point = neutral. there is no neutral on the supply lines from the generating station, nor the substation.

re: legalities. i attended an EnergySafety meeting last week which centred around the new revision to as3000. energysafety officials made it quite clear that infringements of the standards would attract a fine rather than a legal charge. (taking someone to court has its uncertainties and magistrates may be inclined to let people off with minimal penalty) and they made mention that paying a fine was in no way an admission of guilt or liability.
im not sure how the acma stands, but considering the electrical wiring rules and telecomms wiring rules are coming closer together, it wouldnt surprise me if acma followed a similar policy.

junctionbox: did you run those cat5 cables hanging off the suspended ceiling supports? whats your feeling on the new rules for mandatory cable tray or catanery?

<edit> forgot to mention a cracker of a diy i saw not long ago. an old defence forces vet (they always are!) had used telephone cable as a power extension lead with old 240v plugs to supply power to a bug zapper lantern!
no earth obviously, but he mustve figured the bug zapper was a class2 product and didnt need it anyway ;)

Assailant writes...

correction: at the street mounted step down transformer delta --> star
where star point = neutral. there is no neutral on the supply lines from the generating station, nor the substation.

What Overboard wrote is correct as he mentioned substations and switchboards. The star point of every distribution transformer is connected to earth and so is the Neutral in every main switchboard because we use the M.E.N. system in Australia.

You're correct when you say there is no Neutral coming from the power station as the transmission line is a 3-wire system.

However this doesn't mean you won't find Earth Fault protection schemes in distribution substations where power transformers are designed with dual secondary windings and an Earthed Star point in one of them.

There are many more connections to earth than the average person knows about.

Assailant writes...

had used telephone cable as a power extension lead with old 240v plugs

What's new? I realised a long time ago that many D.I.Y. people who do their own electrical work belong to the same association called D.H.I. (Dick Head Incorporated).

limewire writes...

No such things as temporary cabling.

All cabling must be installed in a permanent and legal manner, even if it is only there for 2 days.

That's a bit of a 'blanket' statement!

Even Telstra will some times run a temp lead in.

Cheers

Assailant writes...

did you run those cat5 cables hanging off the suspended ceiling supports? No those are old cables soon to become redunant. New cables are all on catenary as per pics.
whats your feeling on the new rules for mandatory cable tray or catanery? I'm all for it - it may help to weed out a few of the cowboys. But unfortunatly it can add to quite a bit to the cost of the job. I did an install last year for a small business in a complex of about 12 shops. It was the furherest from the MDF and I had to run catenary all the way for one lousy cable - cost them a small fortune and they thought I was ripping them off. Many clients simply don't understand.

Tiger 1941 writes...

Even Telstra will some times run a temp lead in.
Telstra lead in is not subject to ACMA regs - Telstra can do whatever they please on their side of the network boundary!

limewire writes...

No such things as temporary cabling
I agree! All customer premises cabling should be accompanied by a TCA1 certification and as such must comply with the ACMA regs.

Assailant writes...

correction: at the street mounted step down transformer
delta --> star
where star point = neutral. there is no neutral on the supply lines from the generating station, nor the substation.

As far as both Ergon and Energex are concerned a street mounted transformer is a substation. I know this does not fit with what the public image of what a substation is but tecnically it is correct.

Cheers,

I agree!

But the posted 'blanket statement' - "No such things as temporary cabling.", remains, by definition, erroneousness, as it does not apply to emergency cabling, or leadins to building sites.

Cheers

Overboard writes...

As far as both Ergon and Energex are concerned a street mounted transformer is a substation

There's no need to limit your statement to those 2 only; it is the correct term everywhere else, including for transformers privately owned by consumers and installed on their premises.

I know this does not fit with what the public image of what a substation is Let's teach them:

Substation
An assembly of electrical equipment at one place, including any necessary housing, for the conversion or transformation of electric energy or for connection between two or more circuits.

interesting, ive never heard a transformer referred to as a substation. ive not heard our generator, western power, use the term.

wiki seems to suggest a street mounted transformer cannot be a substation (lets be clear and acknowledge wiki is not the defining source of information)
Substations generally contain one or more transformers, and have switching, protection and control equipment.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_substation

i dont believe street mounted transformers would constitute switching gear.

having said that, looking at my AS3000; 1.4.82 defines substation as:
An assembly of electrical equipment at one place including any necessary housing, for the conversion or transformation of electric energy or for connection between two or more circuits.

well that seems pretty clear cut and im more willing to take the word of as3000 over wiki so ill accept the street mounted transformer is a 'substation'

in the context we were previously talking, the neutral at a customers main switchboard (and therefore the earth via the men) is electrically connected back to the street transformer, not the 'switching sub-station' and using the term substation is a little out of context

jayendra writes...

I'm trying to figure out why my broadband keeps spiking
It's probably due to high voltage AC spikes from the power cable and as has already been well covered it wasn't the safest thing to do.
But what you have described pales into insignificance compared with what I saw today....and this was done by a licensed sparkie!!!... s188.photobucket.com/alb...nt=datajobA1.jpg

Assailant writes...

interesting, ive never heard a transformer referred to as a substation. ive not heard our generator, western power, use the term.

I guess it must be a regional thing. They get referred to here as substations all the time though it is normally in the abreviated form of Padmount Sub or Kiosk Sub.

i dont believe street mounted transformers would constitute switching gear.

Once again things are done differently in different areas. Here the normal 500kva padmount sub would have an RMU on the HV end and up to half a dozen 250 amp breakers feeding the outgoing LV circuits to the street pillars.

I guess this has gotten a little OT. I was just trying to point out in the story that even a qualified electrician that is only familiar with electrical practices and not comms practices can get things wrong enough to do major damage.

Cheers,

junctionbox writes...

and this was done by a licensed sparkie!!!... s188.photobucket.com/alb...nt=datajobA1.jpg

Great example of failing to observe the regulations (AS3000 & ACMA). How do we put a stop to it?

Overboard writes...

I was just trying to point out in the story that even a qualified electrician that is only familiar with electrical practices and not comms practices can get things wrong enough to do major damage.

couldnt agree more. the 'average' sparkie has just enough knowledge to be dangerous.

this was done by a licensed sparkie!!!. <-- licenced to kill

i find it a bit perplexing at how surprised you are to see this sort of thing junctionbox. i see that sort of thing on a near daily basis, it appears to be the norm rather than the exception. im going to have to start carrying a digi camera with me i think.

Assailant writes...

how surprised you are to see this sort of thing the pic is from a brand new building site that hasn't been livened up yet. Very disappointing!

im going to have to start carrying a digi camera with me i think. I'm thinking of adding pre purchase comms cabling inspections/audits of commercial buildings to my repertoire.

Junctionbox:
I am a sparkie working on large warehouses and i see stuff like that picture you posted every single day. People just dont seem to care...Especially if it is hidden. I avoid running them together wherever possible but nobody really seems to care.

EDIT: Just got a new house built and my phone line is running amongst about 6 power cables for a length of 15metres. Bloody Porter Davis!

Hey Junction, after seeing that last pic I would have to say if I had to work at that site I'd make sure the power was turned off before I set foot in the crawl space you never know what's live and what's dead up there...

I'd be charging $1,000 just to stick my through the inspection hole before i start work, if you have live power I'd charge $200 per footstep you take.. cause you never know which footstep would be your last nevermind falling through the roof as an added bonus...

Ruskizor writes...

Does that mean installing CAT5 in the roof is illegal?

Did anyone respond to this question? (I may have missed it in my quick skim). An ethernet cable is not that far from a doorbell wire or speaker leads. Network-wise, for what I am considering, I would have:

HCF cable --> modem --> router --> ~15m CAT5/6 lead
so it is pretty well separated from any public network (and it's not the phone system anyway). Would ADSL and cable be different regulation-wise?

rfg writes...

Did anyone respond to this question?

I didn't see one but the answer should be that, there are rules to follow and, such cable can be installed in a ceiling space as long as its installation complies with the rules and it is done by a licensed cabler.

An ethernet cable is not that far from a doorbell wire or speaker leads.

Only as far that they're all insulated conductors, but that's all; for the rest of it, refer to answer above.

redlineghost writes...

I'd be charging $1,000 just to stick my through the inspection hole before i start work, if you have live power I'd charge $200 per footstep you take.. cause you never know which footstep would be your last nevermind falling through the roof as an added bonus...

dream on.

junctionbox: tempted to report the installers on that new job? goes to show how many jobs actually get inspected.

Assailant writes...

... goes to show how many jobs actually get inspected.

Lots of jobs get inspected but it's rare for an inspector to get into ceiling cavities and the tradies know it.

Cheers,

The company I work for used to a lease a building, most of the factory area had no ceiling, just a tin roof. All the cables were done neatly in trays and separated.

There was a small section of the factory that had a false ceiling. It was a rats nest up there. Apart from the usual fire alarm system and lighting cable thrown around the place around the air con ducts, sprinkler system and compressed air pipes, their were also network cables, electric cable and cables for our System 12 Switch - all installed by 'professionals' Some of it was tied to the supports for the false ceiling, some just left where it laid.

Anyway - the new owner has his own network cables, new alarm system and CCTV system installed. None of tje cables laid with too much care.

Now the owner wants to take down the false ceiling to allow room for more rack space. He is in for a little surprise.

It sounds and looks like the owner or lease holder is looking at a wiring overhaul as by the sounds of it, its a fire hazard waiting to happen & not to mention a health hazard to staff and contractors to boot with the rat & mouse piss and scat up there..

I'd be telling him it is a bio hazard and an electrical endangerment to have people working on anything relating to comms equipment, electrical and health within that building until it's fixed...

Assailant writes...

tempted to report the installers on that new job?

I've made the owners aware of the issues and left it up to them to decide. My position is that I don't want to install the phone system until I see a TCA1 certificate for that work. If the sparkie signs off for that job and the owners accept it then it's their bag of sheet and they'll have to live with it.

will you install the phone system still or will you just walk away from the job JB???

redlineghost writes...

will you install the phone system
Hope to get some answers this week.
I've decided to make the phone system fully patchable, not hardwired, so I wont be directly connecting to any existing cabling. I'll cable the phone system to a patch panel in the server rack and sign off on my work so it will be isolated from any existing cabling.

Zakalwe writes...

I have never seen a situation where this could have happened, maybe you guys have seen worse cases

Rats. The rodent types with the little whiskers.

The ones that will eat the insulation off cable and leave the bare copper intact. Even rodent restistant cables get eaten by rats.

Cat5 can easily have a potential charge of 230VAC, it will only melt if there is a load on it, or a connection to ground somewhere.

Zakalwe writes...

An additional question I would like to raise is has this been tested in court?

On page 3of 4 is my proof

www.citt.com.au/pdfs/telit_aug07.pdf

Zakalwe writes...

An additional question I would like to raise is has this been tested in court?

Rusty_Gold writes...

On page 3of 4 is my proof

Fines are plentiful but they are a bit different to charges being heard in court. Still, there is always a first time, play it safe and use a licensed cabler.

Cheers,

Zakalwe writes...

stupid pointless legislation

It's the best manner in which to regulate stupid pointless people.

But seriously.

How much noise would you expect to be induced in a Phone Cable if it ran alongside a power cable, for say 2 meters.

Now lets say you've got 5000 phone cables all doing this.

People who do this create problems. It's a complex system with many devices: medical, security, fire, Network, all using it.

The rules are there to make sure it functions, properly. Personally I'd like to see some more enforcement of the legislation.

~~Adam writes...

How much noise would you expect to be induced in a Phone Cable if it ran alongside a power cable, for say 2 meters.

It is almost nothing. I know when we first started using multichannel plastic ducting I was concerned about this issue and did some add-hock testing. We ran some standard