Whirlpool

Hello everyone,

Im just wonder if ABC is still unmetered data because it seems to be counting towards my quota. I've been downloading 'good game' and 'the chasers war on everything' vodcasts off the ABC TV website, and it seems they are in fact being added onto my quota and not being taken off again! (this was yesterday). I just checked my usage, and they still haven't been taken off!

Any suggestions?

Thanks,

Kyle

There is an issue with unmetered data counting as metered data at the moment ... I would open up a support ticket with Internode support.internode.on.net

EDIT: The ABC website is still an unmetered source on Internode.

elmar01 writes...

There is an issue with unmetered data counting as metered data at the moment ... I would open up a support ticket with Internode support.internode.on.net

Care to elaborate on this one? I can't see any open advisories regarding unmetered usage.

VTN writes...

Care to elaborate on this one?

From what I have read from other users.

elmar01 writes...

There is an issue with unmetered data counting as metered data at the moment ... I would open up a support ticket with Internode support.internode.on.net

Thanks, done and waiting ;)

elmar01 writes...

From what I have read from other users.

That being out of date info about a short duration issue in one state only, that has already been resolved...

(meantime, back at the ranch)

... the ABC have moved their vodcast servers to another physical site lately - and away from the ABC's own network. We're still prepared to un-meter them, and our staff tracked that change with an addition to our unmetered IP list some days back.

But: For all we know they might have moved them yet again.

Reporting it to Internode, as you have done, is the right answer.

And... give Internode staff a chance to track it down next week.

Regards,
Simon

Simon Hackett writes...

But: For all we know they might have moved them yet again.

It's a conspiracy!

Simon Hackett writes...

Reporting it to Internode, as you have done, is the right answer.

And... give Internode staff a chance to track it down next week.

Thanks once again Simon :) I've fired off an email, and im sure all will be fixed within no time!

This is probably why chasers was dling so slow when I was capped :(.

Simon Hackett writes...

the ABC have moved their vodcast servers to another physical site lately - and away from the ABC's own network

They went to Hostworks IIRC. Good thing they peer.

Simon Hackett writes...

the ABC have moved their vodcast servers to another physical site lately - and away from the ABC's own network.

ABC moved their Chaser's War on Everything content from mpegmedia.abc.net.au to vodcasts.abc.net.au. I noted the IP addresses that day in forum-replies.cfm?t=845772#r10 as 202.58.36.81 and 203.58.37.145.

But: For all we know they might have moved them yet again.

The name vodcasts.abc.net.au still resolves to these IP addresses:

# host vodcasts.abc.net.au
vodcasts.abc.net.au has address 202.58.37.145
vodcasts.abc.net.au has address 202.58.36.81

The Good Game content still appears to be on mpegmedia.abc.net.au. The name mpegmedia.abc.net.au still resolves to an IP address within a block already on the unmetered list - 202.6.74.0/24.

Not much appears to have changed on the abc.net.au side of things in the past week in this regards.

I take it this explains why I'm getting capped speeds when I try to download the chaser?

I noticed that the streaming content was a bit choppy from the ABC a few weeks ago. Good to see they're addressing the load and that Internode are actively accommodating it. The ABC's comical election coverage is hard to ignore.

are their radio streams still quota free?

haakon of the shadows writes...

They went to Hostworks IIRC. Good thing they peer.

Correct! :)

Is there anyway to see what is using up downloads and how much? Like a list? Because im curious... its the third day of the month and our download are dissapearing rapidly. This has NEVER happened before.

bodyboarding_bum writes...

Is there anyway to see what is using up downloads and how much? Like a list?

NetLimiter is probably your best bet for that. It can show you which programs/processes are connecting to the net, and their speeds etc.

It obviously only monitors the machine it's installed on though, so if you've got more than one sharing the connection, then you'll need to install / run it on all of them to get the complete picture.

www.netlimiter.com

its the third day of the month and our download are dissapearing rapidly. This has NEVER happened before.

It's not the same problem as this thread by any chance, is it?

ABC must be getting some sweet deals on bandwidth in Australia or If not just one big money hole for the government

thetron writes...

ABC must be getting some sweet deals on bandwidth in Australia or If not just one big money hole for the government

They are a large content provider with mainly domestic customers, peering groups would want them on their networks to attract ISPs and whichever ISP within the GoF who is out of balance for their peering arrangements the most would have a large insentive to offer a sweet deal to rebalance those.

Simon Hackett writes...

... the ABC have moved their vodcast servers to another physical site lately - and away from the ABC's own network. We're still prepared to un-meter them, and our staff tracked that change with an addition to our unmetered IP list some days back.

But: For all we know they might have moved them yet again.

Possibly. I downloaded a whole slew of science podcasts on Saturday (24th) and Gardening Aust vodcasts on the 25th - they all show up as metered data. So I'm over 1GB short of where I was hoping to be with 2 days left. Eep.

I'll lodge a ticket ASAP.

iforum writes...

Possibly. I downloaded a whole slew of science podcasts on Saturday (24th) and Gardening Aust vodcasts on the 25th - they all show up as metered data. So I'm over 1GB short of where I was hoping to be with 2 days left. Eep.

I'll lodge a ticket ASAP.

sorry but i dont think you'll have much luck cause abc is using akamai for there content now.

The challenge here is that, clearly, the ABC have decided to start moving content to Akamai.

We can't unmeter that.

Even if we wanted to (and we don't) - Akamai is such a dynamic system that we can't predict or control (or tell you about) changes in which Akamai cluster the content might be served from - it might be from inside the Internode network, from outside it via a peer, from outside it via a transit link, or even from some other country.

We didn't expect the ABC would do that, when we decided to unmeter their direct data-centre links in Australia.

What we offer hasn't changed - we are unmetering the specific IP ranges we list on our web site, and if those web sites decide to start pushing bits of content elsewhere in the global internet, they (not us) have broken the paradigm that we based the concept of 'unmetered ABC content' upon - that we could rely on where it came from.

This is a new issue, and so we don't yet have a nicely worked out, lean and clean answer for you about it.

Its obvious that its not reasonable to expect our customers to magically know which ABC content comes from them direct vs Akamai vs Hostworks vs somewhere else they might decide to move to later down the track.

The point at which this paradigm started to crumble was the point at which they started this obviously (fairly) new strategy of spreading out their assets in this way.

There is one obvious way to fix the ambiguity - which is to stop unmetering the ABC in general. That generates the obvious (and to me, only) truly 'clean' answer, which is 'none of it is unmetered'.

If there is some other way to deal with this, that doesn't involve Internode telling the ABC how to manage their content distribution (something we clearly don't do and can't do), I'm all ears.

Right now, sadly, the only way I can personally think of to stop this turning into a constant source of billing disputes where we're actually not doing anything differently - its that the ABC is doing so - is to end the unmetering of the ABC in general.

I don't find myself enjoying that prospect, but I enjoy the prospect of being permanently, wrongly, and continuously being accused by customers of diddling their unmetering... even less.

Thoughts welcome.

Simon

thats ok simon we will all get used of it, but if the radio streams go akamai can you please restream the mp3 ones through internode like the other streams?

What a bummer!

this is infact sad... it was one of the reasons i signed up with node. however i do fully understand that it is well and truly beyond nodes control and wont hold any grudges.

it might be worth sending customers an email to explain that random abc content is no longer unmetered so as to avoid any disputes

Don't know if its been discussed, but what about working out an arrangement where you distribute the content from your servers?

danny writes...

Don't know if its been discussed, but what about working out an arrangement where you distribute the content from your servers?

Just what I was thinking, opened the thread a while ago, just got back home, hit refresh after thinking of a reply.

To further extend the above motion: What about only certain content is distributed that Internode users/Internode mainly want. With an arrangement in place for it to stay that way for xyz time etc.

Failing that (if that would even be $possible for node), maybe just getting some sort of confirmation on some of the content that it won't change and if it does they let you know? This way you can direct customers to xyz content and state that the Internode website will be updated when the content changes.

I know you will still have people not checking and then complaining later on and still the possibility of ABC to change the way the content is provided without notification to Internode.

Simon Hackett writes...

If there is some other way to deal with this, that doesn't involve Internode telling the ABC how to manage their content distribution (something we clearly don't do and can't do), I'm all ears.

sorry didnt read this bit.

how about making a way for certain addreses to be unmetered eg mpeg.abc.net.au, so that way that can be unmetered without the rest of akamai.

james up north writes...

how about making a way for certain addreses to be unmetered eg mpeg.abc.net.au, so that way that can be unmetered without the rest of akamai.

The Akamai servers don't have an IP address per "customer" (where ABC, News, etc are customers of Akamai) - so it's not possible.

Simon's approach of "we can't guarantee it's unmetered, so we'll remove abc from the list" is justified, understandable, and technically the easiest way to prevent any unmetering disputes from being raised.

Instead of throwing the baby out with the bath water, could you consider removing the abc sites from the unmetered page, but still actually unmetering the IPs you know are abc? That way any user who is lucky enough to download from an abc ip address will have that usage unwound, and people who get a different ip server will have the traffic counted.

The person with metered usage can't complain because that IP address (or the abc in general) wasn't listed as an unmetered source, and the lucky people who got the unmetered ip address will get an unexpected (and probably unnoticed) bonus of unmetering.

Or is all the "downloadable" content now hosted externally, meaning only html will be unmetered (at great processing power) and a waste of time?

robert writes...

Instead of throwing the baby out with the bath water, could you consider removing the abc sites from the unmetered page, but still actually unmetering the IPs you know are abc? That way any user who is lucky enough to download from an abc ip address will have that usage unwound, and people who get a different ip server will have the traffic counted.

I'm with this approach.

robert writes...

Instead of throwing the baby out with the bath water, could you consider removing the abc sites from the unmetered page, but still actually unmetering the IPs you know are abc?

Yep, sounds like a nice Internode-style approach - promise nothing, but over-deliver anyway.

Truth be told, I wouldn't be all that fussed if it went - it's not a big factor for me.

jaypeabey writes...

Truth be told, I wouldn't be all that fussed if it went - it's not a big factor for me.

I'm guessing you'd be one of the few. I personally download quite a number of shows from the ABC website, as I'm sure quite a number of people do.

jaypeabey writes...

Truth be told, I wouldn't be all that fussed if it went - it's not a big factor for me.

I've only gone to abc site to grab a contact email address.
So I personally don't care if the IP unmetering is turned off, but I thought my idea would be good for those who do go to abc.

danny writes...

I'm guessing you'd be one of the few.

I actually spend quite a bit of time each day on ABC sites, but mainly low-impact ones - the news, show transcripts etc. Nor do I typically run close to the wind as far as my download limit goes each month, leaving plenty of download allowance if I did decide to grab the odd show.

I'd hazard a guess that there aren't too many people who are going to actually be worse off (i.e. having to pay more) if the ABC content was un-unmetered, in real terms. They're certainly not posting in great numbers in this thread yet. I guess we'll see how it pans out.

although i never used the ABC content personally, i think the only fair otion is to advise it as nolonger unmetered but to offer the parts that you can as unmetered ( unless they move all the contect >.> )

Well, this is a darn shame, one of the main reasons we signed up for internode adsl a few weeks back was for the free abc online content, wasn't I in for a nasty surprise after downloading a few ABC online shows....

The only solution I can think of that doesn't strip back content would be to mirror the episodes of a few select shows for the week that they were broadcast. Or at least talk with the abc to see if anything can be worked out.

Instead of throwing the baby out with the bath water, could you consider removing the abc sites from the unmetered page, but still actually unmetering the IPs you know are abc? That way any user who is lucky enough to download from an abc ip address will have that usage unwound, and people who get a different ip server will have the traffic counted.

Sounds like a good idea to me.

I agree with the above comments that you should say it's metered but continue to unmeter as much of it as you can. In the mean time we'll petition the ABC to change what they're doing...

Simon Hackett writes...

Thoughts welcome.

Don't fight it. Give us a little bit extra quota per month as a goodwill gesture and just start metering everything. What was/is the average ABC download per customer per month anyway?

And/Or could you mirror some ABC content?

robert writes...

Instead of throwing the baby out with the bath water, could you consider removing the abc sites from the unmetered page, but still actually unmetering the IPs you know are abc? That way any user who is lucky enough to download from an abc ip address will have that usage unwound, and people who get a different ip server will have the traffic counted.

I could live with this scenario, too.

Me too! If Mixy is free and the Chaser is not I'll still be a winner.

Simon Hackett writes...

Its obvious that its not reasonable to expect our customers to magically know which ABC content comes from them direct vs Akamai vs Hostworks vs somewhere else they might decide to move to later down the track.

But is this not the same thing which is happening with your steam server?

Hell why do you even run a steam server?
With valve being so inflexible and at random picking a server for people, even if they are with node and and should only get the node servers.

Also the only right way to go as I see it is to mirror the shows on the node servers.

The D writes...

But is this not the same thing which is happening with your steam server?

No because Internode control their server, they don't control the ABC.

With valve being so inflexible and at random picking a server for people, even if they are with node and and should only get the node servers.


That is valve's issue and only they can fix it. Meanwhile, there are ways that steam can be forced to use Node's server - the end user can effectively block any other steam server to ensure it's all unmetered.. There is no such option with the ABC issue.

Also the only right way to go as I see it is to mirror the shows on the node servers.

If the ABC are cool with that, maybe it's an option Internode can investigate further.

The D writes...

Also the only right way to go as I see it is to mirror the shows on the node servers.

So you want Internode to fork out what could end up been a large sum of money, just so you can get a mirror of all the shows on ABC, which will cost overall more time to maintain it aswell..

I dont think this is something that would happen in any short term, im sure they have bigger things on their long todo list then worry about ABC content, which as per ABC's decision went Akamai, they didnt need to consult Internode, Internode never had to give you unmetered data to ABC but they did anyway and now ABC have caused issue's by moving to Akamai.
You want Internode to remedy this... when it's honestly not their fault or problem?

Perhaps sit and hang tight, ABC may come off of Akamai soon, it may of purely been during the election period, but it's going to take some time for the changes to be changed back.

d3rt writes...

That is valve's issue and only they can fix it. Meanwhile, there are ways that steam can be forced to use Node's server - the end user can effectively block any other steam server to ensure it's all unmetered.. There is no such option with the ABC issue.

I was talking about how simon said the only clean way to do it was to cut off the abc in full from the unmetered list (so users would not have to run trace root every time they went to the ABC to see if it was unmetered or not) I just said that it is very much the same as how you have to run tcpview with the steam server.

Also the cost of just mirroring some of the shows would be very little vs the cost of mirroring the 5TBs worth of stuff they host already.
IMO

The D writes...

Also the cost of just mirroring some of the shows would be very little vs the cost of mirroring the 5TBs worth of stuff they host already.
IMO

We don't have the right to mirror ABC's content though. And I doubt they'd give it to us.

randovaro writes...

And/Or could you mirror some ABC content?

Personally I'd prefer this approach. A abc.internode.on.net mirror would be really sweet. Could all the vodcasts be mirrored - just how much of it is there?

Obviously i'm excluding all the streamed content here as those links constantly change and there would probably be TB worth.

I'm talking just the m4v/wmv downloads - how much would there be i wonder?

*edit* ok looks like that idea is out then... thanks MMC - is anyone at node going to at least ask anyway? Who knows they might surprise you.

robert writes...

could you consider removing the abc sites from the unmetered page, but still actually unmetering the IPs you know are abc? That way any user who is lucky enough to download from an abc ip address will have that usage unwound, and people who get a different ip server will have the traffic counted.

This general approach sounds good to me. Perhaps Internode could still get some marketing mileage by saying on their site that "traffic from the ABC may be unmetered, subject to {some appropriate wording}".

Also, maybe MUM could somehow tie in with this list to indicate if the current traffic is unmetered. Don't know if this is feasible as MUM doesn't constantly update. Perhaps another gizmo could do the job?

Simon Hackett writes...

I don't find myself enjoying that prospect, but I enjoy the prospect of being permanently, wrongly, and continuously being accused by customers of diddling their unmetering... even less.

Yes, I absolutely appreciate your position. Is there an easy way for us as end users to determine IP ranges, say at the "save as" point ... and then check on a list that node maintains of known ABC (and hence unmetered) sources?

edit: reading further on how akmai works, maybe not. Oh well, easy come easy go.

rj writes...

Perhaps Internode could still get some marketing mileage by saying on their site that "traffic from the ABC may be unmetered, subject to {some appropriate wording}".

That's the current situation - read the unmetered website pages.

Matthew Moyle-Croft writes...

read the unmetered website pages.

Sorry MMC, I do see that at www.internode.on.net/content/unmetered it says ....

Abc.net.au content is unmetered only where it is provided directly on the peering links into the ABC data centre; Where the ABC may choose to use external servers for some of its content, that content may no longer be unmetered.

I have read this before today but forgotten it was there - I do have other things to think about :-) .... Nevertheless, perhaps this info could be highlighted so customers have no misunderstanding and can't argue the toss over their usage. Also, at www.internode.on.net/radio it says ....

Note that content from the Australian Broadcasting Corporation (ABC) is also available as un-metered traffic, ABC audio and video streams can be played, un-metered, directly from the ABC website.

... which implies that all traffic is unmetered. This is what I looked at before I posted above. I'd suggest that this wording be changed and/or link back to www.internode.on.net/content/unmetered

Anyway, I'm just trying to be helpful, MMC. Personally, it doesn't worry me whether or not ABC traffic is metered. I like to use some of the ABC content but I don't use enough that it impacts significantly on my usage. Don't get me wrong. I do appreciate the unmetered content provided by Internode and give the radio streams a good hammering. :-)

jjcoolaus writes...

*edit* ok looks like that idea is out then... thanks MMC - is anyone at node going to at least ask anyway? Who knows they might surprise you.

We did ask. We can't.

I can't see any real alternative other than to remove the unmetering as a documented feature because we can (clearly) no longer provide that service, due to circumstances beyond our control.

And, alas, I can see a problem with leaving the data from the ABC direct link unmetered on an undocumented basis, too - which is that we'll suffer from people saavy enough to understand that, but also cynical enough to argue the toss if they do manage to download data elsewhere, by saying they're relying on the observed outcome anyway - i.e. I think we need to make a clean break here.

Sometimes people chopping logic can just... chop off their own heads. This is a case in point.

We'll chew on this a bit more, and I posted my thoughts here in case anyone had a magic bullet, and alas (and not surprisingly) it seems there isn't one.

Also, at www.internode.on.net/radio it says ....

Note that content from the Australian Broadcasting Corporation (ABC) is also available as un-metered traffic, ABC audio and video streams can be played, un-metered, directly from the ABC website.

... which implies that all traffic is unmetered. This is what I looked at before I posted above. I'd suggest that this wording be changed and/or link back to www.internode.on.net/content/unmetered

... actually, what it says (not withstanding that this text was obviously written before the situation changed) is that the streams are unmetered where they are obtained directly from the ABC website.

That states (and means) that all traffic which is obtained directly from the ABC is unmetered - which is true. Hence the use of the word 'directly', which was very carefully chosen. The trouble is that an increasing amount of their traffic actually doesn't come from them any more, at a technical level.

And obviously we can't expect our customers to understand, or appreciate, the distinction in general. Hence, as per the previous post, I can't see an answer that is clean and unambiguous other than not doing it any more.

Simon

The D writes...

Hell why do you even run a steam server?


Because it provides a service, separately to and not withstanding the metering challenges.


Also the only right way to go as I see it is to mirror the shows on the node servers.

Which we can't do - so that kinda eliminates all our options to keep doing it at all.

I'm still open to anyone with a magic bullet. But I can't see one.

Simon Hackett writes...

We did ask [ask ABC for permission to mirror]. We can't.

Would it help if we asked? Just thinking that a couple hundred letters may sway ABC a bit.

I don't believe it would. The ABC aren't allowed to make commercial deals/alliances with anyone. They can buy stuff, but they can't cosy up to a commercial company in a way that might look like sponsorship/endorsement (I'm paraphrasing here, but this is something very familiar with anyone who has dealt with government in general - not just the ABC in particular).

Note that from their standpoint, they're improving the quality of their service (and they are). And its not their problem that this accidentally kicks a bright idea of ours (mine) out of the bath along with some other remaining bathwater.

I don't have a handle on the amount of unmetering that is at issue here. In the end, it may not be a huge amount of it anyway. Its mostly about the same thing the unmetered radio services we offer achieves - access to a media source without needing to care about the metering.

NB the unmetered radio is going strong and isn't subject to the same issues - as we *do* operate the relays concerned on our own initiative and at our own cost - we aren't relying, there, on the source IP of the data concerned changing, because the source IP of the unmetered stream in that case is generated by and run by us.

Awwww

free BBC world service radio also please :)

The only thing I can think of is examining the header of every http packet to check if it's addressed to a *.abc.net.au virtual host. This should pick up content even if it is being sourced from a mirror (eg akamai) via a cname. However, I would imagine this would be *very* computationally intensive and probably rather complex to implement. I guess you could cut the complexity down and only examine the headers of known abc mirrors, but still this would be pretty hard to manage and bug prone.

Thanks for the free abc content whilst it lasted though :(

In the event that the ABC content becomes metered traffic, is there a chance that the ABC's DIG internet radio, and maybe JJJ, could be confirmed to remain unmetered via 'node's free radio streaming please?

Fiend writes...

The only thing I can think of is examining the header of every http packet to check if it's addressed to a *.abc.net.au virtual host. This should pick up content even if it is being sourced from a mirror (eg akamai) via a cname. However, I would imagine this would be *very* computationally intensive and probably rather complex to implement.

This kind of thing takes huge amounts of cpu and ram to ensure you don't add undue latency to everyone. (I had a mate who worked at Prolexic which does a similar but much much much more thorough service).

Also, do you want Internode (or anyone else for that matter) peeking inside every packet thus bringing out the tin foil hat brigade?

Whats the current rule with reagrds to the metered status of ABC material that comes off the pipenetworks? Running tracert on some streamed radio resolved the path to (forgive me here as I cant remember the exact addy) brisbane.abc.pipenetworks.com.

Anything coming through PIPE is still unmetered at this stage.

I see that the wording at www.internode.on.net/radio has been changed to:

Note that content from the Australian Broadcasting Corporation (ABC) is also available as un-metered traffic, however, it is important to note that ABC traffic is only un-metered where it originates directly from the direct link between the ABC and the Internet, not including other external content mirrors that the ABC may choose to use.

This is better, but I think more could be done to make it 'hit-on-the-head-with-a-brick' obvious to the lay-person that some ABC traffic is now metered. Perhaps, something like this:

Some content from the Australian Broadcasting Corporation (ABC) is also available as un-metered traffic. It is important to note that ABC traffic is only un-metered where it originates via Internode's direct network link from the ABC. Note that traffic is metered where the ABC chooses to host their content on external servers.

The unmetered ABC traffic has been one of the marvelous features of Internode. I'd urge Internode not to dispense with it altogether - at least for the time being.

We're quite prepared to leave what works, working, as long as we don't wear an unacceptable amount of claims that we lied to people about the ABC being unmetered.

We'll aim to change all the references on our site to say that some (emphasis mine) ABC content is unmetered, specifically content that originates directly from the ABC, and not from any external mirroring services the ABC may decide to use now or in the future.

... and see how that goes for a while.

linx writes...

Whats the current rule with reagrds to the metered status of ABC material that comes off the pipenetworks?

Unchanged.

Simon Hackett writes...

I don't believe it would. The ABC aren't allowed to make commercial deals/alliances with anyone. They can buy stuff, but they can't cosy up to a commercial company in a way that might look like sponsorship/endorsement (I'm paraphrasing here, but this is something very familiar with anyone who has dealt with government in general - not just the ABC in particular).

If you have contact with someone clueful inside ABC IT, it might be worth suggesting they study how the BBC approaches this issue. The BBC connects to all the major peering points in the UK and runs BGP feeds from participating ISPs to identify end-user IPs that are inside the UK.

They do this so they can provide some content only to IPs inside the UK (theoretically television license payers). The crappy, grainy video streams you see on the BBC News site are actually full-frame if you're on broadband in the UK.

A similar approach by the ABC would mean they can show some stuff only to Australian IPs, for rights-management reasons, and would solve your problem here too.

But I've never found the mythical clueful person at ABC IT. Maybe you've had more luck?

shermozle writes...

A similar approach by the ABC

BBC deliver all content themselves.

The ABC are present at PIPE BNE, MEL and SYD. The issue isn't that - it's that they're using non-ABC sources for delivering content. Ones that can move and change (ie. Akamai can use pretty random sources for delivering video - look back further it was coming from Tokyo).

And this is the problem. When ABC deliver content JUST from their own IP addresses then no problem exists - we know what they are, where they come from and we can unmeter that.

The issue is that they're delivering content out of Akamai and Hostworks in ways that we CAN'T identify in advance where the traffic might come from.

It's this issue that's causing us the problem in this thread.

Simon Hackett writes...

We're quite prepared to leave what works, working, as long as we don't wear an unacceptable amount of claims that we lied to people about the ABC being unmetered.....

It's not your fault that the goal posts have been shifted on you, Simon. I think judicious changes to wording on your site ... and perhaps an email to your mailing list (???) ... will cover the situation.

Many thanks for listening and not taking a knee-jerk reaction on this.

Edit: Made it more polite (after re-reading in the light of a new day).

Simon Hackett writes...

Whats the current rule with reagrds to the metered status of ABC material that comes off the pipenetworks?

Unchanged.

And the obvious follow up to that question and response is, what is unchanged?

Duckimus Prime writes...

And the obvious follow up to that question and response is, what is unchanged?

That any data coming from the ABC via Pipenetworks is still unmetered.

so the chaser is no longer unmetered? :(
tis a sad day.
no wonder i killed an extra 100mb or so yesterday.

bodyboarding_bum writes...

seems to be counting towards my quota.

Excellent, I might actually have a chance to break my 3.5 GB record!

edit: that's is the most I've ever DLed in one month is 3.5 GB. I use ABC a lot and might get to break my record and even actually get somewhere near my quota.

not_using_telstra writes...

so the chaser is no longer unmetered? :(

thats not exactly what I (or anyone else) said.

The outcome is that its not obvious whether it is, or it isn't - it depends on exactly what IP you downloaded it from at the time.

And that...is the issue/problem in a nutshell. "It depends"...

Simon Hackett writes...

The outcome is that its not obvious whether it is, or it isn't - it depends on exactly what IP you downloaded it from at the time.

vodcasts.abc.net.au -> 202.58.37.145

chaser is not unmetered i don't think
(as the server resolves to an unmetered ip, checked with tcpview)

Maybe ABC could pay Internode a small amount to mirror the content so that they are just being customers of internode.

:P

$1 a month

@ people who are capped, when you download the chaser, do you get capped or full speed?
edit: abc vodcasts is owned by hostnetworks

edit: so chasers is not unmetered, but i was just wondering if
mpegmedia.abc.net.au is unmetered.

mpegmedia -> 150.101.98.69 which isnt on the unmetered list, but if i use tcp view
it shows the connection as

akamai5-2.adl5.internode.on.net:ht­ tp (which resolves to an ip of 150.101.98.77), i thought anything that ends with internode.on.net was unmetered?

I'm capped atm and it seems like the ABC website is affected by the cap as well

beedee writes...

I'm capped atm and it seems like the ABC website is affected by the cap as well

Yep ... it's distributed via Akamai.

The Elite Axe writes...

Yep ... it's distributed via Akamai.

so akamai5-2.adl5.internode.on.net:ht­ ­tp is metered?

not_using_telstra writes...

so akamai5-2.adl5.internode.on.net:ht­ tp is metered?

Yes.

No offence, but it's already been covered pretty well in this thread.

not_using_telstra writes...

i thought anything that ends with internode.on.net was unmetered?

No

www.internode.on.net/content/unmetered

This Sucks. But at least the Chaser has just about finished.

Oh well.. Its just another reason to get it off bittorent in high quality (sorry can't post links) Or get the chaser in high quality h264 from here... idents.tv/blog/2007/04/2...4-uncut-episodes

also please Simon leave the unmetered zone in and let power users run the gauntlet of trying to get downloads unmetered

Thank you

Simon Hackett writes...

I'm still open to anyone with a magic bullet. But I can't see one.

Perhaps this is a naive case of a little bit of knowledge being dangerous but I've thought of something....

Fiend writes...

The only thing I can think of is examining the header of every http packet to check if it's addressed to a *.abc.net.au virtual host. This should pick up content even if it is being sourced from a mirror (eg akamai) via a cname. However, I would imagine this would be *very* computationally intensive and probably rather complex to implement.

What about configuring the node DNS to point *.abc.net.au to the IP address of a node hosted proxy server, and allowing that proxy to see the real DNS records?

That also means it isn't a 'mirror' and the ABC can still feel they have control of their content...

Can someone critique this idea please?

Just wondering,is there something cool it could be rplaced with eg;sbs??(i know its not as simple as that but Does any one have suggestions??,Is Simon considering/looking for something decent to replace it with?? as this is(unmetered content) sometimes the deciding factor for some when signing up with internode, considering its more exp and less data than other local(s.a)isp's.

P.s.I am happy at Internode, for the moment,i am not paying them out.(for the Internode fanboys!)

masliko writes...

Just wondering,is there something cool it could be rplaced with eg;sbs?

Yes please!

programs.sbs.com.au/newstopia

/big micallef fan

What a dog's breakfast!

I'm just going to run with the assumption that everything off the ABC is metered and budget my quota accordingly.

Well, since we've unfortunately lost a good deal of that service, can we get something to replace it? Pref some more variety in already existing stuff, like maybe a few more radio channels or perhaps an extra gaming server? (Please not another annoying CSS server too) Because I am very annoyed at this whole predicament due to the fact I convinced my family to get a rather low cap with internode solely on the Gaming Network and un-metered ABC content, of which I watch a very large amount of most of the time. So, if we cannot get back previously available content un-metered, could we get some sort of reimbursement in the form of another service (a different channel eg. sbs) or an increase in a current service eg. a few extra radio stations?

Malicious Mallard writes...

So, if we cannot get back previously available content un-metered, could we get some sort of reimbursement in the form of another service (a different channel eg. sbs) or an increase in a current service eg. a few extra radio stations?

Dare I suggest that you will get a similar response to when the usenet server was removed, being that unmetered ABC costs you $0 a month extra and therefore they are willing to reimburse you that amount.

Of course it comes down to how you see it, either as:

$X is a resonable price for XGB of data at XKb/s a month and anything else is a bonus.

or

$X is a resonable price for XGB of data and the unmetered content at XKb/s a month.

It is a service provided with the internode broadband package and as such is a service bundled, not a free extra, since that service is not given freely to non-internode customers then it is not free.

But if we are to lose the abc can't we just un-meter something else of similar value? It isn't imperative but I think it would be a good way of satisfying customers cheaply if, in fact, there is nothing that can be done about the current predicament with the abc.

Malicious Mallard writes...

It is a service provided with the internode broadband package and as such is a service bundled, not a free extra

Please note that Internode provides unmetered data sources as a value-added service for customers. The provision of unmetered data access is entirely at the discretion of Internode. The availability of this facility and the list of unmetered data sources available may be varied or withdrawn by Internode in the future.

And in this particular case (and in most cases), the offering has been varied due to circumstances beyond Internode's control.

Reading this thread more out of general interest than self-interest - - abc dls don't form a significant percentage of the household traffic - - I captured packets while a realaudio stream was running and while an mp3 file (not a stream) was downloading to see if I could recognise what was what.
And I am confused already.

The realaudio streams are easy - - packets come from an IP in the abc range.
But the mp3 files appear to come from an Internode akamai IP - with the original request going to mpegmedia.abc.net.au

Anybody care to point out what happens with the mp3 files? Is the akamai serving in this case one that Internode will count as general data, and not abc data?

EDIT to make my question clearer.

hoipolloi writes...

Is the akamai serving in this case one that Internode will count as general data, and not abc data?

I believe that is the case - the mp3 stream would be metered.

hoipolloi writes...

Anybody care to point out what happens with the mp3 files?

forum-replies.cfm?t=8523...779651#r13779651

Last paragraph in particular.

Is the akamai serving in this case one that Internode will count as general data, and not abc data?

Not in the case of the mp3 streams. They're a bit of a 'special' case, as noted above.

The Elite Axe writes...

Not in the case of the mp3 streams. They're a bit of a 'special' case, as noted above.

I think Simon's referring to the Internode mirrored radio streams (ie those on radio.internode.on.net that aren't from the ABC). The ABC MP3 streams are still subject to the caveat that if they don't come directly from the ABC they're metered.

FYI I just connected to the JJJ MP3 stream using the link on radio.internode.on.net and the connection seemed to be with an ABC IP address, so the ones directly linked there may be okay but those linked to on the ABC website may come from Akamai.

Queeg 500 writes...

so the ones directly linked there may be okay but those linked to on the ABC website may come from Akamai.

not yet they come from melbourne.pipenetworks.com

but i guess that will change soon to :(

Thanks for the explanations. I think I'm getting the idea about streams - - and I'm guessing that the same thing applies to files. The example I used is downloading a radio program from this morning's Background Briefing:
The program's website is here
www.abc.net.au/rn/backgroundbriefing
The file downloaded is here
mpegmedia.abc.net.au/rn/...bbg_20071202.mp3 The link labelled "download audio"

With regard to abc mp3 streams, none of the Internode links are talking to the abc from my connection - nor can I get the streams by going to the abc site itself.
I'm in regional WA. I wonder if this is a factor?

Other radio stream on the Internode page are working when I link to them.

UPDATE 3:36 WDST: ABC streams from both Internode's page and from the ABC sites are now downloading direct from the ABC's servers.
The sample Background Briefing file remains served via akamai.

Interesting.

Simon Hackett writes...

I don't believe it would

Neither do I, from experience with restricted ABCFM broadcasts and ABC2 over satellite.

The ABC aren't allowed to make commercial deals/alliances with anyone. They can buy stuff, but they can't cosy up to a commercial company in a way that might look like sponsorship/endorsement (I'm paraphrasing here, but this is something very familiar with anyone who has dealt with government in general - not just the ABC in particular).

Laughing here!
Couldn't get a written reason why ABC2 isn't relayed over the ABC's FTA Aurora Satellite link (that's the one that citizens who have no access to terrestrial antennas can use if they invest in a decoder/dish without subsidy), even though it's relayed to Foxtelstra via the same Satellite - - the switchboard operator explained that cost drives the restriction of services on FTA stuff. Ha!

Equally couldn't even get to first base for a question about why special ABC Sydney concert broadcasts of the SSO aren't made available over ABCFM at the time of performance, while same are narrowcast to BigPuddle subscribers in a "partnership".

Gave up a long time ago with ABC and it's confused rules.

Eric writes...

And in this particular case (and in most cases), the offering has been varied due to circumstances beyond Internode's control.

I know, I am just saying that it would be a welcomed gesture to the community if you where to replace lost 'extra' services (I know they are out of your control) by giving customers something in lieu, that is just a solution that gives us something that would be no more expensive to you than what you are doing now, and it is something you can proclaim without ifs, buts or maybes on your feature list.