Whirlpool

Re:ABC Melbourne TV News evening January 14 2004. Via IBM within the next 18 months. Telstra apparently outsources about 50% of IT jobs. What next?

Ken Richards. writes...

What next?

100% outsourced??

You listen to indian accents for tech support in a few months time?

ALMOST 500 Australian information technology jobs could shift to India under a new deal between Telstra and IBM worth up to $200 million which will save the telco about $75 million.

news.com.au/common/story...55E15306,00.html

Bloody greedy BASTARDS! The Govt as majority share-holder should do something about it. Now we will have to pay dole to these 500 people out of the tax payers fund. Also the indirect loss job impact will add more to that number.

USA is now working out a bill to stop the stupid transfer of jobs to overseas.

If Telstra wants cheap labour in India then it should also charge us Indian phone and Cable TV rate.

Can you imagine any Asian country selling the jobs to overseas?? ... All hell will break loose!

Sir Rag writes...

All hell will break loose!

I think it has already

I think we will all need to learn to speak Hindi to converse with customer service reps!

I believe that the Indians go to special schools to learn to speak like us and Americans. The Indians are highly educated and earn very good money by Indian standards as the cost of living is low compared to ours.

Perhaps we should consider boycotting any Australian firm that 'sells' our jobs to overseas for mere small profits. Telstra has had lost $$Biliions$$ with overseas failed ventures and then sells our nation's IT Industry's jobs to attempt to recoup these loses despite making $$$4Billion++++" profit. The Govt that owns majority share sits down in silence!??! - just like Emperor Nero whilst our It Industry is on fire!

Bloody Greedy Bastards Telstra and Very Stupid Idiot Liberal Govt for allowing this to take place. Let this become an election issue.

Now hang on a minute Sir Reg - how was the current Government going to stop an American Multi Nationl (IBM) from out sourcing jobs. I agree that the libs are clowns but they have no say in corporate affairs/decisions generated from a different country.

If you look at the situation and the terms of the contract between IBM and Telstra it is obvious that Telstra CHOSE the model offered. IBM staff were ex-Telstra staff, so in effect these 'outsourcing' is a good way to get rid of staff. Telstra can insist to IBM to give priority to Australian staff and to recruit from overseas or outsource ONLY if IBM is unable to find suitably qualified staff.

Can you imagine India or China or any Asian country doing this to their IT industry?
There will be riots as all hell will break loose. Why are we so nice and sell our jobs to overseas countries that do not have a 'level playing field'. What happens if a trend develops and we get nurses and teachers from overseas at cheaper rates instead of training more by creating more uni spaces??

Our Govt should lead the way, but we have idiots ruling us.

Sir Rag writes...

Our Govt should lead the way, but we have idiots ruling us.

Free trade baby, this is the result of economic rationalisation.

It is a great way to increase the economic growth of the entire world. The social cost, however, is rarely considered worthy of mention.

It's betrayal. For the last 10 years IT has been pushed and pushed and pushed in our education system, millions, nay billions of federal/state dollars have been spent pushing the IT education sector. Big IT corporations were lured here with massive subsidies to run our public and private IT infrastructure. Now it's all being run by workers in other countries. There have been thousands and thousands of students dragged away from mechanical engineering, medicine, nursing and into the "IT revolution".. Now it's being sold off-shore. Are we all supposed to emigrate to India?

Remember this when you vote next, talk to your local MP. It's only the beginning.

It's simply profit seeking, which means the little guy always gets hurt. It things like this that make you feel cursed to live in a first world country... well almost.

Sir Rag writes...

Our Govt should lead the way, but we have idiots ruling us.

Yep we have a Senate ruling us and therefore nothing ever gets done unless the greens or democrats say so, which means nothing ever gets done...

Do people think India one day will become the global IT hub?

Don't know about IT jobs but alot of Japanese/Sth Korean companies have shifted lots of manufacturing/production jobs to China due to low currency & wages but the only gripe i hear is about interlectual property rights being broken.

somebody representing a Mr Scales has said words to the effect if it happens it's not our fault. It now looks like somebody is trying to manafactuer[sorry I mean find or possibly invent excuse/s] and possibly runnining around like a decapitated avian.

DarkLotus writes...

Yep we have a Senate ruling us and therefore nothing ever gets done unless the greens or democrats say so, which means nothing ever gets done...

The Minister of Telecommunications, as representative of major share-holders -the public- could have done something by suggesting to Telstra that priority should be given to Australian workers. Unless it is not possible to find local workers to do the job should Telstra look at offshore outsourcing. It is a hypocrisy for Asian nations to seek 'free' trade when they take measures to protect their interests.

This news report states ... smh.com.au/articles/2004...73877934525.html

Concerns over China's strategies intensified last month when it announced that foreign computer and chip makers that want to sell certain kinds of wireless devices in China would have to use Chinese encryption software and co-produce their goods with a designated list of Chinese companies.

This proves that we in the Western nations are being taken advantage by Asian nations who have different set of rules when coming to protect their industries.

I am sure the Democrats and the Greens will be more loyal to the Australian work force the the Liberal Govt who seems unperturbed, so far. Govts can act to safeguard crucial jobs and legislate to protect them by making rules to stop Australian based companies functioning in Australia to use only local work force unless the skills or talent cannot be found here, otherwise this will result with other trades being offshore outsourced in the future.

Labour is cheap in India and China and why not take advantage of that in banking, accounting and perhaps teaching!

The Liberal Govt has a moral responsibility to stop these sorts of abuses by corporate greed.

MZ writes...

For the last 10 years IT has been pushed and pushed and pushed in our education system, millions, nay billions of federal/state dollars have been spent pushing the IT education sector.

For the last 10 years everybody, including students, has thought IT was an easy ticket.

Maybe it was, but it aint now.

While I have some sympathy for the kids doing 3rd rate IT related degrees, most of them took them because they thought it was a quick and easy ticket to the good life.

Sucked in.

I heard a woman from one of the uni arts faculties talking about this yesterday. How arts degrees are coming back into fashion as kids are waking up to the fact that these BS degrees in fields like IT, Tourism and Media are all a con.

daniel jack writes...

Do people think India one day will become the global IT hub?

duh..where have u been? India already is the global IT hub!

Torytroll writes...

Sucked in.

Nicely put.

I think that, as with most "bright ideas" in business, this is just the in-thing to do. These ideas are typically perpetrated by career managers looking for quick and easy ways to elevate themselves to the boardroom trough. The government, who seem to act more and more corporate every day are run by a similar breed of power hungry, greedy individuals. The outsourcing fashion will undoubtably end, however, there will be some inevitable social consequences in the meantime.

When the social fabric of society inevitably crumbles to the point that people are radicalised then we *may* start to see some government intervention, not because of the governments social conscience, but because it affects the Government Corp's position at the money/power trough.

Mmmmm I just had a mental picture of a million radicalised IT geeks marching on Canberra...

Scottishguy writes...

The government, who seem to act more and more corporate every day are run by a similar breed of power hungry, greedy individuals.

Precisely. When election comes we shall send a clear message to the conservative Govt mongrels who keep putting Australian interests last on their agenda.

Enough is enough. About time the Govt acted and sack Ziggy for wasting $$billion$$ in failed Asian ventures and then goes on to 'sell' our IT jobs to India. Fools- Bloody fools for not acknowledging our interest or let alone even share-holders interests. The tax payer will have to foot the bill for the social carnage and dole.

WHAT is WRONG with our GOVT? WHY this inaction by the Ministers to stop Telstra from acting foolishly??

Sir Rag writes...

Precisely. When election comes we shall send a clear message to the conservative Govt mongrels who keep putting Australian interests last on their agenda.

Bwhahahahahah.

And you think Labor state government mongrels are any better on this score?

forum-replies.cfm?t=149592

Sir Rag writes...

WHAT is WRONG with our GOVT? WHY this inaction by the Ministers to stop Telstra from acting foolishly??

www.theage.com.au/articl...73877944124.html

The unemployment rate is only 5.4%, the lowest it has been in 14 years.

It doesn't sound like our economy is in a particularly dire situation.

Torytroll writes...

And you think Labor state government mongrels are any better on this score?

Telstra's public share-holding comes under the Federal Govt control. State Govts can't do much. I am sure a Labor Federal Govt will put Australian interest first.

Tyberious Funk writes...

The unemployment rate is only 5.4%, the lowest it has been in 14 years.

That figure is a myth. Many jobless people esp over 40's prefer not to register. Sometime back the Govt fiddled the books to make it look good. They call it politics!

Sir Rag writes...

That figure is a myth

I'll agree with that!! I'm a perm res, but I CANNOT claim any public funds! Therefore, can't regisiter to go on the dole, Austudy. If I'd only come by boat...

Sir Rag writes...

That figure is a myth.

To a certain extent... yes. But not in the manner you think.

Many jobless people esp over 40's prefer not to register.

Register for what? You don't need to "register" for anything in order to be included in unemployment figures.

Sometime back the Govt fiddled the books to make it look good. They call it politics!

Which Government would that be? The ABS has been using the same mechanism for measuring unemployment for a long time now. It may be a flawed method, but at least it is consistent... meaning that although a figure of 5.4% isn't necessarily a reflection of actual unemployment levels, it is a reasonable point of comparison with previous years.

yes, the unemployment rate does not paint the full picture as it doesn't include ppl who want to work more (eg part time to full time), and, even if you do 1 hour of work a week, you will be classed as employed.

I am sick to my stomach when I see skilled Aussie jobs going anywhere. This is a huge trend that will backfire on them. Ireland DELL "insourced" back to themselves as people could not understand the them.

Sure they can do programming but they come from a completely different culture and are servicing the needs of us they just don't get us. We don't undertand ourselves, let alone an Indian trying.

IBM are just following the golden calf of money and when it goes to hell, it will be us who suffer.

I also do not trust the the political climate there. What if an all out war happens? They hate Pakistan's guts (vica versa) Plus the prehistoric infrustructure that surrounds these tech cities. In one of this such cities there was a terrorist attack where signifcant damage was done. It just does not feel right to hold ourselves hostage to India. I might sound raciast but an Indian taught me. No joke, my best mate was born and bred there and I love the food and people.

Wild Westie writes...

I am sick to my stomach when I see skilled Aussie jobs going anywhere.

people could not understand the curry munchers.

they just don't get us.

It just does not feel right to hold ourselves hostage to India.

I might sound raciast

Sound racist? You? Noooo... I mean, afterall, your best mate is Indian right? And you like a good curry as much as the next guy.

Sir Rag writes...

I am sure a Labor Federal Govt will put Australian interest first.

Well, the state governments are pretty quick to outsource their IT, and other functions. If they are tendering on price then those tenders are off to Chennai.

If you genuinely believe Labor will be any better than the Libs on this you are deeply mistaken.

Torytroll writes...

Well, the state governments are pretty quick to outsource their IT, and other functions. If they are tendering on price then those tenders are off to Chennai.

Interesting! Can you give me some source that can verify that as Labor seems to be making the right sort of noise, so far. True to say that some tenders may outsource some of their work to out-stations but in Telstra's case - it is lock stock and barrel of entire division- merely to save peanuts. Telstra is public majority own and has a moral obligation to set an example for public interests and the Federal Govt should ensure that Telstra does that.

Sir Rag writes...

Interesting! Can you give me some source that can verify that as Labor seems to be making the right sort of noise, so far.

Have a look at the outsourcing done by state Labor governments. Federal Labor might make noises, but when they get power it will be business as usual.

Telstra is public majority own and has a moral obligation to set an example for public interests and the Federal Govt should ensure that Telstra does that.

Profits are more important to the government, other shareholders and the electorate. I don't disagree with your POV, but the harsh reality is as a nation, we only care about the bottom line.

Telstra's outsourcing won't cost the government one vote and Labor opposing it won't win them one vote.

You may recall Labor was the anti-privatisation party. It was noise.

Torytroll writes...

Well, the state governments are pretty quick to outsource their IT, and other functions. If they are tendering on price then those tenders are off to Chennai.

If you genuinely believe Labor will be any better than the Libs on this you are deeply mistaken.

they will be better, not much I agree, but better nonetheless.

It's really a sad reflection on the population of Australia more than the politics. We've got a conservative government in office and the only opposition is as close to conservative as a Labor party could be :) No wonder the greens are doing so well :)

The state governments are in a fiscal hole :(

Torytroll writes...

I don't disagree with your POV, but the harsh reality is as a nation, we only care about the bottom line.

I agree. But need we be like that when Asian countries have different set of rules when coming to protect their infrastructures or industries. Is it wise for a fistful of dollars gained to sacrifice the entire IT industry? Govts can do something about it if they have the desire to safeguard and protect Australian public interest rather then Multinational's corporate interests.

What we need is some laws that will safeguard our jobs from cheaper overseas labour. Only if no suitably trained staff cannot be found should companies send jobs overseas. If not. one day, we will get nurses and teachers form Asian countries as private schools and hospitals can get cheaper staff from overseas. It will happen as things will NOT stop with IT industry.

Sir Rag writes...

But need we be like that when Asian countries have different set of rules when coming to protect their infrastructures or industries.

The problem is that solution ends up with an inefficient or corrupt industry, or both.

What we need is some laws that will safeguard our jobs from cheaper overseas labour.

What we really need is a tax system that rewards active investment, education, research and development. Right now, we have a system that rewards passive investment in shares, bricks and mortar. Until we change that, Australian industry is going to be on the back foot.

Torytroll writes...

What we really need is a tax system that rewards active investment, research and development.

Not only that, the government should take the first steps in giving preference to local industry when they outsource their IT or a lot of organisations, particularly CSIRO will be disadvantaged in the long term.

Tyberious Funk writes...

You don't need to "register" for anything in order to be included in unemployment figures.

Actually you do. Otherwise how do you get included in the figures? They don't include stay-at-home parents who are doing this by choice or early retirees and unless people register as unemployed they just can't assume they are - and they don't.

On top of that the degradation of working conditions and job security under this government makes the unemployment figures appear much lower than they actually are because they don't include part-time workers. The increase in jobs, accounting for the drop in unemployment figures, are almost entirely part time.

That said, the economy is definitely in better condition than it was during the last global recession. It's just not anywhere near as pretty in the real world as the beancounters would have us believe.

Sir Rag writes...

Labor seems to be making the right sort of noise, so far

Yeah right sort of noise, but wil lthey do anything?

No.

Look nobody cares about IT geeks in this country. They don't give a ^(*%*%*& and even if they did, they will still buy Telstra products after a few days.

They'll spend $50 polishing the Holden, but will happily download that PC game or piece of music off the web for free.

People want technology for nothing. They want IT for nothing. And there are plenty willing to give it to them.

Fact is Telstra told IBM, EDS and co to offshore, because the call centers are next to 'align our call center people with our IT assets'.

Janus writes...

Fact is Telstra told IBM, EDS and co to offshore, because the call centers are next to 'align our call center people with our IT assets'.

Did they really use the words IT and assets in the same sentence?

Kewl, there's hope for us yet.

Torytroll writes...

Did they really use the words IT and assets in the same sentence?

More like they were referring to the antonym of 'asset'.

ferzal writes...

Actually you do. Otherwise how do you get included in the figures?

Actually you don't.

Unemployment figures are recorded by a random phone survey. There is no 'registrations' involved anywhere.

On top of that the degradation of working conditions and job security under this government makes the unemployment figures appear much lower than they actually are because they don't include part-time workers. The increase in jobs, accounting for the drop in unemployment figures, are almost entirely part time.

Including part-time workers in employment figures has always been the case. I don't know why people keep thinking this is some conspiracy perpetuated by the current government to "hide" the truth. And yes, part-time employment is a significant contributor to employment growth. But then, there has been a trend over the last 15 years for part-time employment growth as more women enter the workforce to earn their families second income. They, like many others, don't actually WANT full-time work.

Of those that are unemployed, how many are "in between jobs"? The result of a relatively new phenomenum of employees being much more mobile in their working habits? These are socio-demographic trends that are completely beyond the control of Governments.

It's just not anywhere near as pretty in the real world as the beancounters would have us believe.

Australia has low unemployment, solid economic growth, low inflation, low interest rates and surplus budgets. All the big ticket items seem to be in a pretty good state. You could argue that national savings is a bit of a problem, and that economic growth is being fuelled by excessive consumption rather than investment... but as a general rule, our economy is doing well.

But gosh, Telstra outsources 500 jobs overseas and people think the entire world has caved in.

Tyberious Funk writes...

Actually you don't.

Unemployment figures are recorded by a random phone survey. There is no 'registrations' involved anywhere.

You misunderstand me. If you're not registered as unemployed you won't be counted as such. If you're not registered and looking for work then you don't make the unemployment figures. That's the way I understand the survey.

Including part-time workers in employment figures has always been the case

You misunderstand me again. I'm not saying this is something new. What is new is the sheer number of part-time workers mainly in the form of casual work. I wasn't talking about the degradation of job security and working conditions for nothing.

The ABS figures, whilst giving some indication of what's going on, are a complete load of crap and should not be taken too seriously. It doesn't give anything like an accurate description of unemployment. For that you need to look at the DSS monthly figures. They're far more damaging to the government of course so they won't be shouting them out too loudly.

Australia has low unemployment, solid economic growth, low inflation, low interest rates and surplus budgets.

And a health care in crisis, an oncoming aging population boom with insufficient funds to support itself, degraded working conditions, fading job security, insurance blowouts, unaffordable housing (the boon for investors is over too) and interest rates only have one direction to go. The view isn't always so rosy, depending on where you're sitting.

Unemployment isn't really so low either. There are more long term unemployed people now than there has ever been. The difference between now and 10 years ago is that instead of 8 people unemployed you've got 5 people unemployed and 5 people working casually. If you work more than one hour you're employed according to the ABS remember.

ferzal writes...

You misunderstand me. If you're not registered as unemployed you won't be counted as such. If you're not registered and looking for work then you don't make the unemployment figures. That's the way I understand the survey.

Then you understand the survey incorrectly.

www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/...97E0018FED0?Open

Read point 16. Registering with Centerlink shows that you are "actively seeking work" and therefore will be included in unemployment figures. But there are a number ways to determine whether someone is actively seeking work and registering for Centerlink is only one of them.

The ABS figures, whilst giving some indication of what's going on, are a complete load of crap and should not be taken too seriously. It doesn't give anything like an accurate description of unemployment.

They definitely have their flaws. But I wouldn't describe them as crap at all. They use internationally recognised methods for modelling unemployment figures.

you need to look at the DSS monthly figures. They're far more damaging to the government of course so they won't be shouting them out too loudly.

Hah! Those are equally flawed. As you've already pointed out, there can be any number of people not currently employed that wouldn't show up on DSS figures because they don't register. And of those that are registered, how many are actually interested in finding work? Exactly how can the Government (any Government) help someone who doesn't want to work? Rest assured that Government keeps a very strong eye on DSS figures since they have an impact on their welfare budget. But they are not much of an indicator of the Government's performance as custodians of our economy.

Tyberious Funk writes...

"actively seeking work"

Exacly.As a student is to be considered not actively seeking work untill she/he legally registers. The student is not considered in the figures. the same thing goes for all sorts of other people too. You have to be legally registered as unemployed, plenty of people within are not unemployed only the myth of those actively seeking work are unemployed. The figure is very handy for stastical purposes and various other purposes. " Unemployed " has never been the number of people out of work and not working because you have to be not actively working,unemployed. legally registered and usually an Australian Citizen. "Unemployed" can be a very very flexible figure with many definitions. One example is various Pensioners ,a pensioner is usually a pensioner and is not actively seeking work because if a Pensioner was actively seeking work he/she would not fit the legal definition of "Pensioner" or "Unemployed". Another example is a person is retrenched or just between jobs and not legally registered as "Unemployed" until a certain "legal time" has passed.

Ken Richards. writes...

Another example is a person is retrenched or just between jobs and not legally registered as "Unemployed" until a certain "legal time" has passed.

This is completely fallacious.

Did you actually read the link I provided?

Tyberious Funk writes...

Sound racist? You? Noooo... I mean, afterall, your best mate is Indian right? And you like a good curry as much as the next guy.

That reponse made my day mate. I laughed.

As per the slur, I got that from the cricket. Sorry, too much Australian in me and not enough political correctness. Apologise to any Indian or Indian descent people who read it and may have taken offense. But I asure you that if Australians were taking any other jobs from any other country. We would get called all sorts of things and if not worse. (ie blown up!)

Botton line. Hate seeing jobs go to India or anwhere else just because of the big buck. Customer service jobs to non-english culture. Really bad idea in its self.

We are allowing another politically unstable country to control our technology that our business rely on. Bad idea.

Wild Westie writes...

That reponse made my day mate. I laughed.

Well... that's nice.

Whether you are actually racist or not... using terms like "curry muncher" in a public forum is not going to make you look crash hot.

Tyberious Funk writes...

Well... that's nice

If only you knew. Being nice doesn't always get across the point does it? Tell me. Name one "nice" person that ever made a difference. I allowed a passion to get to my words. Just visit parliament house to see what I mean.

is not going to make you look crash hot

Since when does anyone actually know the real person on a forum anyway? I doubt it very much. But I do not disagree with you. Just speak to someone like Mark Latham the future PM who is a professional public figure.

I guess our easy going nature is often our downfall. We just sit around and allow it to happen. We don't get turned on about issues. We are lazy.

Tyberious Funk writes...

Then you understand the survey incorrectly

Yep. I assumed they would ask if the person was registered (not just with Centrelink btw) with an employment agency of some kind.

They use internationally recognised methods for modelling unemployment figures

Read outdated, useless, irrelevant methods. The ABS statistics on unemployment are interesting as a guide when compared to other figures but the last thing they tell you is the actual number of unemployed people.

Hah! Those are equally flawed

Of course they're flawed but they stack up very well compared to the ABS figures. In terms of relevance they can't be beaten. The unemployed who are being supported by the taxpayer are all accounted for. And they show all those people who are doing 1 hour work or more. Equally flawed indeed.

how many are actually interested in finding work?

Most of them. A true dole bludger is, in fact, rare.

exactly how can the Government (any Government) help someone who doesn't want to work?

They can't. Fortunately there's not many people who fit this category.

Rest assured that Government keeps a very strong eye on DSS figures since they have an impact on their welfare budget. But they are not much of an indicator of the Government's performance as custodians of our economy

Well that view depends on how much credence you put in the view that the government is the single most important factor in the welfare of the economy. If you believe the government can be held responsible for a poor employment environment then the unemployed and receiving benefits statistics are all that matter. The government's aim is to get those people off the dole and working fulltime and they've failed.

Janus writes...

Look nobody cares about IT geeks in this country. They don't give a ^(*%*%*& and even if they did, they will still buy Telstra products after a few days.

They'll spend $50 polishing the Holden, but will happily download that PC game or piece of music off the web for free.

Couldn't agree more, funny, well no, it's not funny, that the bits and pieces that make up a Holden car are very Asian. And then they carry on like they are such the quintessential Aussie, AYE MATE!

Just think how people IT put on the scrap heap !!!!!

No one will care, IT is just getting back what it did to others !!!

Harry writes...

No one will care, IT is just getting back what it did to others !!!

Not true. IT as an Industry caters almost all walks of life and some sections have had a good ride during the 2k y bug period. But most sections were not that well paid.

What worries me is other trades like finance, banking, etc also looking to overseas for cheaper labour. Then tax agents and accountants, maybe engineers jobs and so forth will go offshore. Teachers and Nurses will follow. Philippines and Indian nurses will work for half the pay. Indian teachers will work for even lesser.

Can you see what is happening?? Where will it stop? Your job can be the next to go.

Sir Rag writes...

Not true. IT as an Industry caters almost all walks of life and some sections have had a good ride during the 2k y bug period. But most sections were not that well paid.

Are you on drugs? Leading up to Y2K, you'd be hard pushed to find anyone working in IT that was poorly paid.

What worries me is other trades like finance, banking, etc also looking to overseas for cheaper labour.

Hrrmm... I don't know if I'd describe finance or banking as a "trade". But, whatever...

Then tax agents and accountants, maybe engineers jobs and so forth will go offshore. Teachers and Nurses will follow.

Certain professions are extremely difficult to outsource overseas. Teachers, and in particular nurses would be almost IMPOSSIBLE to outsource given current technology. Not to mention the legal ramifications. But that's ok... you stick to your fear-mongering idiocy.

Can you see what is happening??

Yes. We are offloading IT grunt jobs that are getting ridiculously paid to a country that is willing to accept the work and do it at a considerably lower rate. I don't think it is the end of humanity. The original example cited, IBM GSA, are still maintaining certain positions here in Australia that require an actual physical presence. This is the future of IT in Australia. Roles that emphasise client interaction will stay here while lower-end grunt roles like code-cutters are going offshore.

Your job can be the next to go.

My job may well go... but it sure as hell wont be outsourced overseas.

Quite obviously its cheaper to send the jobs to India because its cheaper, but have we developed such a work ethic for more pay, often exorbatant working conditions (i know this doesnt apply to all) etc [especially with our unions] that it may come to a situation where for service providers to keep costs down they cant continue to employ the staff in Australia to make it worthwhile...

bacco|007 writes...

where for service providers to keep costs down they cant continue to employ the staff in Australia to make it worthwhile..

Yes it will eventually come to this if the trend continues. It's just common sense - not fearmongering. You just have to look at the textile industry in this country to see what will happen. The dollar and the dollar alone rules and if you can get more for one of them in India then that's where it'll go.

Outsourcing [as long as both partys stick to the agreed terms] just seems to be the easy way out, because as long as Party B are doing the work correctly, Party A only really have to sign the cheques at the end of the day....

Wild Westie writes...

Customer service jobs to non-english culture. Really bad idea in its self.

Err the reason that the jobs are going to India, is because English is widely spoken in India.

The main reason for this is that IBM have to make a profit off of this deal. The only way they can do that given Telstra's cost cutting is to move the jobs.

Also this is to get the public 'used' to the idea so that the call centers can be moved after the next federal election.

Janus writes...

The main reason for this is that IBM have to make a profit off of this deal. The only way they can do that given Telstra's cost cutting is to move the jobs.

The main reason was for IBM to retain the contract full stop. InfoSys or others would have won the work otherwise.

Tyberious Funk writes...

Roles that emphasise client interaction will stay here while lower-end grunt roles like code-cutters are going offshore.

And how many IT architects, managers and upper level IT guys in general started out in a lower-end programming role?

I believe what Latham said is right, this government has allowed too many rungs to be taken out of the ladder of opportunity. It's a shame he doesn't have the balls to admit why they have been taken, ie, too many bloody people in the world.

It's all good for you being the elitist whatever you are but I know there's a lot of guys here that would be hurt and worried about their future because of this treason.

Sure, it might just be fear mongering and sensationalism, but this is one thing that has to have a VERY close eye kept upon. These bastard companies will do whatever it takes to screw people over so they can have that extra porsche.

Tyberious Funk writes...

Did you actually read the link I provided

I believe that my information came directly from the CES before it was renamed Centrelink. Did the CES make mistakes? Dare I ask.

Ken Richards. writes...

I believe that my information came directly from the CES before it was renamed Centrelink

The CES did not become Centrelink. It's unemployment figures were the same as Centrelink's now but Centrelink's also include how many people are underemployed which gives more of an indication of the poor state of the full-time job market in Australia.

I work for a NSW Government Department, and one of our female techs had to speak to one of these outsourced Indian support desks, and he refused to talk to her. He said 'I want to speak to someone in charge' and she said 'that would be me' and he replied with 'no, you are a female'

It is ok to outsource, but it is going to be very difficult to outsource to a country who don't seem to hold our same values when it comes to EEO.

I see this discussion has become political....I think the Libs haven't done a too bad a job running the country, and people say Labor are making the right noises, well in my opinion Labor are simply saying what people want to hear! I cant see Labor making things better or different if they win power...Like I said they are just telling us what we want to hear.

russ writes...

Like I said they are just telling us what we want to hear.

And that's different to the Libs?

Geez, you blokes are funny. You seem to really believe there is a difference between the two parties in most moral and political aspects.

russ writes...

I think the Libs haven't done a too bad a job running the country,

Honest JH is known to 'bend' the truth! The serious situation here is the majority Govt owned Telstra is selling IT jobs to India. That is NOT right. I have a son who has done Bach IT and Honors Com Science and can't get a job. There are thousands like him looking for work but companies like Telstra are outsourcing jobs to India to save money. Where is the savings when we have to pay dole and collect less tax??
How can we compare living standards between India and Australia? Telstra is charging us under Australian conditions and not Indian rates.

I expect JH and the Hon Minister for Telecommunications to speak out but they are silent.

Sir Rag writes...

companies like Telstra are outsourcing jobs to India to save money

It is Telstra's outsource partner who has gone to India in fact IBM have been doing this for quite a while, It's intersteing that as soon as Telstra is mentioned everyone gets outraged.

The pressure to reduce costs comes from the shareholders as they want a better return.

I have a son who has done Bach IT and Honors Com Science and can't get a job.

Hate to say it but there is no point in whinging about a deadend degree, a person with a 3 year old MBA is in the same boat, that's life in today's corporate world.

Re-train or dumb down the resume when going for a job, I have had to do that just to get a foot in the door.

mickeym writes...

It is Telstra's outsource partner who has gone to India

Questionable! IBM could not compete otherwise and Telstra may have 'directed' IBM towards that end.

The pressure to reduce costs comes from the shareholders
The Aust Govt is the majority share-holder and Telstra holds a privilege position, hence required to safeguard and put Australian first. The savings is negligible as the Govt lose tax and have to pay dole. The Govt could as majority share-holder instruct Telstra to look at employing Australian workforce.

Hate to say it but there is no point in whinging about a deadend degree
You must be kidding. He just finished his honors only last year. Can you name mw one Asian country that 'sells' its jobs to another Asian country?

Re-train or dumb down the resume
Good idea but finding the 'door' for a job is hard and he may have to move to England.

Also bear in mind about "burgernomics". It TAKES the average Australian worker 19 minutes to earn enough to buy a Big Mac. In India, average workers keep their nose to the grindstone for two hours before a Big Mac is in sight.
source: news.com.au/common/story...%255E421,00.html

It is my view that Australia should follow what Asian countries already does..i.e. Jobs for local business for local conditions cannot be outsourced offshore unless skills and talent is not available in country. Merely 'selling' jobs offshore to cut cost is unethical an unAustralian. Telstra had blown $$Billion$$ on failed overseas ventures and makes $$Billion$$ and charges us heaps for poor services as well. The penny-saving venture by Telstra is a stupid move and Ziggy should get the sack for not putting Australia and Australians first.

mickeym writes...

It is Telstra's outsource partner who has gone to India in fact IBM have been doing this for quite a while, It's intersteing that as soon as Telstra is mentioned everyone gets outraged.

Do you really believe this ? Telstra were demanding cost reductions that made it impossible (well not profitable) to perform this work in Australia. If IBM hadn't done this then Infosys or some other Indian company would have won the work.

The decision was primarily one of cost alone.

WhatThe writes...

Telstra were demanding cost reductions that made it impossible (well not profitable) to perform this work in Australia.

Precisely. That is what IBM said. Telstra knew that for IBM to compete it will have to use cheaper Indian labour. Although about 500 jobs are gone now, another 1000 will disappear to India shortly. When this gets translated to further 'demands' for cost -savings, more jobs will have to go. When will it stop?

The idea of offshore outsourcing is not acceptable. Who is to know that other jobs, like finance, accounting etc may not be transferred later on??

Enough is Enough. Australian jobs should stay in Australia.

Sir Rag writes...

Good idea but finding the 'door' for a job is hard and he may have to move to England.

Exactly what mine son did, went to Europe and because of this he will be sort after once he returns because of the international experience.

mickeym writes...

Exactly what mine son did,

That seems the only door to be opened. My son is a star pupil with scholarship and high honors etc BUT no job opportunities in Australia. One of his friends went to England and got a job within days on arrival.

JH should do something about the Australian IT industry or else we will find our children going overseas for jobs.

Sir Rag writes...

JH should do something about the Australian IT industry or else we will find our children going overseas for jobs.

It's not just the Aussie IT industry, it's all industries.

We, as Australians, only want to invest in bricks and mortar and the odd "sure thing" on the stockmarket.

As a consequence, any kid who wants a career in Science, research, education or pretty well any field outside of banking, law and construction better pack their bags.

It's a problem bigger than JWH can handle. I doubt Labor are up to the task either.

Torytroll writes...

It's a problem bigger than JWH can handle. I doubt Labor are up to the task either.

JH put Alston in charge of Telecommunications, and that says a lot!! ... and the only interest the Federal Govt ever had was to SELL Telstra. Where is the Research and Development in IT? This Federal Liberal Govt has absolutely no interest in Australian IT industry.

Govts can promote industries and create positive situations by encouraging investments and research and also by reducing tax. Besides being the highest taxed country we also have the highest interest rates when compared to Japan or USA or most other countries.

The only reason that brick and mortar got attractive is because of negative gearing and fantastic tax concession via Capital Gains Tax. No other countries offer the tax advantage to the same scale as Australia. No wonder the property market went crazy!

Sir Rag writes...

The only reason that brick and mortar got attractive is because of negative gearing and fantastic tax concession via Capital Gains Tax. No other countries offer the tax advantage to the same scale as Australia. No wonder the property market went crazy!

Yeah. But it's nothing new. Negative gearing has survived successive Liberal and Labor governments.

It skews investment towards passive investment. In the long run this means fewer jobs for Aussie kids. We know this, yet we will punish any government that has the temerity to change the system.

We have the pollies, the tax system and the economy we deserve.

Whats really interesting about all of this is that IBM is doing the same thing for Vodafone in Sydney and offshoring all their IT work there and no one says anything.

The Commonwealth Bank is having EDS offshore its IT work.

And Qantas hasn't hidden its desire to offshore it's 'decidely middle-aged and useless' (quote from the CEO in a board meeting) IT department either.

Why is Telstra the only bad boy here?

Sir Rag writes...

JH put Alston in charge of Telecommunications, and that says a lot!!

He was the best guy for the job. I know everyone here crapped on about Alston when he was the Minister, only because it was the fashion to do so and really what would an 18~20 yo really know of the telco industry.

He did do a good job considering what he was up against, reforms he pushed through have been very good for this country.

Who would you have preferred Steven Smith??? Kate Lundy???

we also have the highest interest rates when compared to Japan or USA or most other countries.

I would not want their economies though.

Janus writes...

Why is Telstra the only bad boy here?

Because it is the only thing that most people here can do - bag Telstra.

Lets get this straight....

Do I (as a Telstra customer) expect to pay them for being a communications provider ?
or do I expect them to take MY MONEY and use it to subsidise jobs for other people ?

Paying people to do work that is not required or is menial is an insult to them. Use these jobs as a career path perhaps, but what career path is there from a Call Centre. Maybe one in 20 gets promoted to call centre team leader ?
All in all, its one step up from moving holes

If someone can provide a service or a good cheaper than me, why should anyone be forced to buy stuff off me ? What I have to do is CHANGE what I do. Anyone who has been in IT for more than 10 years and hasn't changed is dead weight anyway.

Following in a similar vein, much work is being outsourced to countries other than India, because the Indians are not interested in menial stuff (recent sale of a melbourne s/w house that outsources work to eastern europe coz its cheaper...)
EDIT: to add link forum-replies.cfm?t=1451...2032185#r2032185

BTW, I work in the IT outsourcing business. It goes both ways. If you have any IBM m/f system admin skills, I can get you a job (any state in Aus) working on systems for US based multinationals.

mge writes...

Lets get this straight....

I agree with everything you said, you hit the nail right on the head.

What have U Got Against Indians, Punk

Torytroll writes...

Yeah. But it's nothing new. Negative gearing has survived successive Liberal and Labor governments.

About 2-3 years ago the property market was almost dead. The investors were not that keen. Then the tax laws changes reducing the capital gains tax by 50% and the returns from share market was awful. This created the boom in property investments as marketers were able to offer get-rich schemes and the tax system provided a good cushion and the reducing interest rates made property investments very attractive as zero deposits was required. It is small changes to tax systems like that that can propel growths in industries.

yet we will punish any government that has the temerity to change the system.
We do but considering that $10 billion now goes into tax concessions through 'negative gearing' we must ask ourselves if the public will prefer that money be spend on Health and Education. Besides the actual number receiving these benefits represents only a small number of populations. I am sure that most people when given the figures will urge the Govt to reduce tax or spend more on essential services.

We have the pollies, the tax system and the economy we deserve.
True. We elect the Govt but some changes comes during mid-term and we do not vote on these.

However, the issue here is the the outsourcing of jobs by a majority Govt owned Telstra which enjoys monopoly and full control of the infrastructure. What I am putting to you is the responsibility that such Govt majority shared own companies to the Australian people and industry. Can we sincerely sacrifice our children's jobs overseas? What future are we offering them. Years ago we had free education and then came HECS. Now our children are getting nothing from the older greedy generation as we take it all for our selves and the Govt is helpless to do anything about it. How can you explain to 45000 who can't get a uni place unless they are willing to pay in full?? What irony is it that we penalise our younger generations? The politicians enjoy a comfortable benefit like protected super-annuation whereas the young battles have to find a job and then pay their HECS in a market that is increasing transferring their jobs offshore. Then - has anyone considered the security implications??

I am sure that a Labor Govt will be more mindful of the needs of Australia and Australians.

Bloody baby boomers. Scourge of the earth. Would you hurry up and die already?

Sir Rag writes...

Can we sincerely sacrifice our children's jobs overseas? What future are we offering them.

I look at my generation and see too many losers, with no jobs, drug problems and no hope. And what have they got to look forward to? Why should they get out there and get jobs? Buying a first home becomes a distant dream, we will be paying more and more taxes to pay for the elderly, we will have no sick/holiday/maternity/long service leave, and we will have no old age pensions and heavily taxed super funds.

mutant writes...

Bloody baby boomers. Scourge of the earth. Would you hurry up and die already?

...and I suppose the KaZaa generation will be the countries salvation?.....NOT.

don't be such a tosser.

attenuation writes...

Buying a first home becomes a distant dream,

Not id you work with your parents as my kids are doing. We are all working together, utilising the equity we have in our North Shore home to enable our kids to own property, the family is working like a co-operative and in the end each will have a property they can uitilise to get them off and running in the Sydney market.

we will have no old age pensions and heavily taxed super funds.

Welcome to the club, we already have that so why should it be any different for your lot.

Stop waiting for the hand out, get off your butt and make a future for yourself, I had to and so have my kids.

mickeym writes...

Not id you work with your parents as my kids are doing.

So I should get punished for moving out of home at 18 and not leeching off my parents? Not to say your kids are, per se, but too many kids are staying home until late twenties, paying no rent and costing their parents a fortune.

the family is working like a co-operative and in the end each will have a property they can uitilise to get them off and running in the Sydney market.

I have tentatively brought this idea up with my Mum, but she's not keen to move to Qld as her boyfriend is in Canberra.

Welcome to the club, we already have that so why should it be any different for your lot.

Because we probably won't have the benefit of old age pensions...


Stop waiting for the hand out, get off your butt and make a future for yourself, I had to and so have my kids.

I've been working since age 18, I work very hard, am working towards a good career, thank you very much!

Sir Rag writes...

I am sure that a Labor Govt will be more mindful of the needs of Australia and Australians.

I don't disagree with a word you have written. But I don't think a Labor one would be any different. The last Federal one wasn't and the current state ones aren't.

The reason is us. By us I mean the Australian nation.

About 2-3 years ago the property market was almost dead. The investors were not that keen. Then the tax laws changes reducing the capital gains tax by 50% and the returns from share market was awful. This created the boom in property investments as marketers were able to offer get-rich schemes and the tax system provided a good cushion and the reducing interest rates made property investments very attractive as zero deposits was required. It is small changes to tax systems like that that can propel growths in industries.

While the ill-thought out change in the CGT (typical Canberra) hasn't helped. Property speculation is a lot more ingrained in the Australian psyche than that. The simple fact is that we, you, me, our neighbours, the community at large want property.

It's a brave pollie that stands up to that ingrained belief and it sure as hell isn't going to be the Kirribilli Liar. And I doubt it will be Mark Latham either.

mickeym writes...

Not id you work with your parents as my kids are doing. We are all working together, utilising the equity we have in our North Shore home to enable our kids to own property, the family is working like a co-operative and in the end each will have a property they can uitilise to get them off and running in the Sydney market.

Good on you.

The problem with this is that you end up with a class system where the only people who can afford property are those whose parents have the funds and the motivation to help their kids.

Tough luck if your parents decide you're a goose, were born on the wrong side of the tracks, blew the family fortune on the pokies, or (horror of horrors) unsuccessfully tried to set up a business that employed Australian kids.

A landed gentry is exactly what this country needs in the 21st century.

<edit> Atrocious spelling

Torytroll writes...

brave pollie

I do believe we have an oxymoron here...

attenuation writes...

Because we probably won't have the benefit of old age pensions...

Very true. We as a nation are not addressing the issues of old age care. Our aged-care growth is expected to double within the next decade to double what is today. The sheer cost of age care caring in form of age pensions and free health care will cause considerable funding problems. This need not be the case if we can learn form other 'matured' countries and prepare ourselves for that scenario. Taxation should encourage savings and incentives given to those who positively safe. Under the present system it is actually better to downsize assets and lifestyle and go on age care pension.

Governmet should act now before it is too late. These problems will not disappear and so far the Liberal Govt has not even pondered on the age-care issue. .. and if nothing is done the younger generation will be left with a considerable burden of the ever increasing aging population.

The solutions to deal with this problem is not at all that difficult. What it needs is a young political leader with will who is fearless to act and do the right thing for all Australian. I think a Labor Govt can do that.

It is also useful to think that there is no such thing as 'free-trade'. It is the biggest myth of all. The whole foolish taxation system that favours 'negative gearing' is causing interest rates to rise and hence making our Australian exports costlier. This is turn will result in more jobs being out-sourced off-shored as companies attempt to 'compete'.

Well said. You, Sir, seem to be very well-informed and articulate your opinions well. It is refreshing to see that I'm not the only person concerned about the future.

Sir Rag writes...

This is turn will result in more jobs being out-sourced off-shored as companies attempt to 'compete'.

It's already begun in the IT and Telco industries, hence the subject of this thread. Who's to say that other industries won't follow suit? Outsourcing is popular all over ... why not outsource to an el cheapo overseas company?

Torytroll writes...

The problem with this is that you end up with a class system where the only people who can afford property are those whos parents have the funds and the motivation to help their kids.

Well I'm sorry for that, but at least the kids are not getting the stuff for nothing, they are paying market rent for the property, it is certainly not negatively geared which is a trojan horse if you look at it properly, and it will be paid off within 4 years. Then we use the equity in our present home and this property to purchase the next one and on it goes.

Tough luck if you parents decide you're a goose, were born on the wrong side of the tracks, blew on the pokies

There are too many parents like that already, only interested in their own lives and couldn't give a stuff about the kids. This is one of the major social problems we face.

attenuation writes...

So I should get punished for moving out of home at 18 and not leeching off my parents?

Not in the least and I was never having a go at that.

too many kids are staying home until late twenties, paying no rent and costing their parents a fortune.

My kids have a bunch of friends doing exactly that, I blame the parents for being dickheads, they are certainly not doing their kids any favours.

I have tentatively brought this idea up with my Mum, but she's not keen to move to Qld as her boyfriend is in Canberra.

Honesly, she does not have to live with you to do what we are doing. One of my kids lives in Europe. You also don't have to start with an expensive property either.

I've been working since age 18, I work very hard, am working towards a good career, thank you very much!

Good on you, and I wish you every success, you deserve it.

Sorry if I came across too hard, but I get really pissed off with kids standing their with their hands out expecting that its their God given right to get everything for nothing or for evry little effort.