Whirlpool

Hi All,

Just a quick comment about the slow speeds here in Mawson lakes recently.

I used to average around 5-6 Mbps- now sitting around 2.8 Mbps, this is appalling.

So i rang the Adam helpdesk and they gave me advice which was too move to an area with better access to the ADSL2. Couldnt believe that they actaully allow their staff to say such crap to clients..

The agent that i spoke too also advised of the backhaul issues with Telstra- insufficient to cover the peak periods.

This is fine to blame Telstra, however im paying Adam $70 bucks a month not Telstra. The fact that Adam wasn't even willing to bother with a line check or a speed test at all is what appalls me- i have a mind to post that ridiculous response on the community website and to steer people clear of Adam.

Why should i pay $70 for a service that they cannot provide- wait for the FTTN was the other brilliant suggestion..!!!

Will be considering churn back to Internode- least they may actually bother.!!

It sounds like the street-cabinet-deployed DSLAM (I refer to them all as RIMs for simplicity) is being speed limited by Telstra due to insufficient backhaul... if so, you would be affected regardless of which ISP you're with.

baggy67 writes...

This is fine to blame Telstra, however im paying Adam $70 bucks a month not Telstra.

I can understand your sentiment, but it's not as if Adam have a choice in the matter – they would much prefer to have you connected to their own DSLAM, but Telstra won't allow it (through an insufficient amount of copper back to the exchange, refusal to allow access to the copper at the street cabinet etc.) so there's really not much they can do.

All that said, if your sync speed has actually dropped (rather than just the download speed / throughput dropping) then it's worth persisting to get the helpdesk to log a line fault (although Telstra don't actually consider a speed reduction to be a fault).

HI,

Then why should i have to pay full price.!! They cannot provide the service at the speed they are selling.

It's always the same old excuse why dont Adam add their own hardware in the new estates and go around Telstra..!!

I'm pretty sure the speed they are selling is up to 8000/384kbps. You're fine. The minimum it has to be, before Telstra (Wholesale) consider it an issue is 1Mbps. As you are above this (2.8Mbps), the phrase "tough titties" comes to mind.

why dont Adam add their own hardware in the new estates

They are. Lochiel park is an example of such a rollout. It's much more cost-effective, however, to put the equipment into a brand new estate, than try and dig up an existing one.

Will be considering churn back to Internode- least they may actually bother.!!

The backhaul from the RIM to the exchange to the POP will be the same, whether Adam, Internode, iiNet... or anybody else for that matter. Maybe check out yourBroadband.com.au?

baggy67 writes...

wait for the FTTN was the other brilliant suggestion..!!!

I don't imagine that anyone would actually suggest waiting for FTTN if you're currently on a RIM.

You see a RIM IS fibre to the node.

The RIM is a "node", it is supplied by fibre backhaul, hence FTTN.

Matt writes...

I don't imagine that anyone would actually suggest waiting for FTTN if you're currently on a RIM.

I think the suggestion is that when the NBN gets announced, Telstra (if we're unfortunate enough to have them win it) will suddenly upgrade the RIMs to have enough ports for everyone that wants one and enough backhaul to support them, which seems plausible to me...

baggy67 writes...

So i rang the Adam helpdesk and they gave me advice which was too move to an area with better access to the ADSL2. Couldnt believe that they actaully allow their staff to say such crap to clients..

Parts of Mawson Lakes do have Adam ADSL2 available but its a bit odd to suggest moving.BTW even if you could get Adam ADSL2 at Mawson Lakes you are not going to get much better speeds than you are getting now. 5- 6 Mbps would be considered very good.
Sounds like the RIM/CMux has be capped.

baggy67 writes...

Couldnt believe that they actaully allow their staff to say such crap to clients..

Well it's easy to point fingers at the staff when we didn't hear your side of the conversation. Given the obvious emotion showing in your typed words, I can only imaging you became a little heated on the phone. But unfortunately its quite valid, Mawson Lakes is a internet black hole, always has been and for the immediate future it always will be. Sure some areas are fine, but most are in the 'stone ages'.

baggy67 writes...

i have a mind to post that ridiculous response on the community website

Er, you just did!

LOL..the Mawson Lakes Community website..

I also was quite polite to the guy from Adam, no hint of anger or frustration..

baggy67 writes...

which was too move to an area with better access to the ADSL2.

I remember years ago when "The Levels" was being promoted as the you beaut place to live for digital connectivity. Its amusing to hear that it is quite the opposite.

baggy67 writes...

The agent that i spoke too also advised of the backhaul issues with Telstra- insufficient to cover the peak periods.

Have you also read this thread – /forum-replies.cfm?t=1075604

Then Adam should drop the prices regardless..poor service shouldn't equal high prices.

baggy67 writes...

Then Adam should drop the prices regardless..poor service shouldn't equal high prices.

I doubt that Telstra or any other wholesaler will drop their prices for an ISP because of backhaul congestion, thus, wouldn't reducing prices for these issues cause them to lose money?

It may actually prompt other ISP's to get their own gear instead of relying on Telstra all the time.

So customers get screwed because Adam are cheap and don't want to spend any money on infrastructure.!!!

baggy67 writes...

It may actually prompt other ISP's to get their own gear instead of relying on Telstra all the time.

Adam have installed their own gear – Telstra won't let you connect to it. Adam aren't "relying on Telstra all the time."

So customers get screwed because Adam are cheap and don't want to spend any money on infrastructure.!!!

Adam have spent large amounts of money on infrastructure. The problem is that Delfin and Telstra got together and decided to go the cheap route of installing myriad RIMs – that's not Adam's fault, and Adam couldn't do anything about it if they want to... another ISP has tried getting access to a RIM in Mawson Lakes to install their own DSLAM (not in the RIM but in their own cabinet nearby) but Telstra keep coming up with excuses why they can't, despite being legally required to allow such access.

You're missing the point Baggy67 .. Your service is sold with min. speeds, and you are already beyond this threshold. Sure you may not achieve the speeds that others paying the same amount do but that is a fault of the technology rather than the ISP. If we go back to having guarenteed speeds then its the old Telstra model of 1.5Mbit being the highest achieveable speed. I certainly don't want that model again as it was flawed.

You're living in Mawson Lakes, which from its early inception was identified as a 'black hole' for internet connections. Stating that Adam should invest their own infrastructure is short sighted. There have been many problems in Mawson Lakes over the years, some could not be overcome based on Adams initiative alone.

I understand your anger at this situation completely, but I don't think aiming it 100% at Adam is correct. Its the reason I will not own a home in Mawson Lakes.

baggy67 writes...

So customers get screwed because Adam are cheap and don't want to spend any money on infrastructure.!!!

ISPs aren't being cheap, it's that it isn't viable to install equipment to service areas already covered by RIM. Otherwise a provider would have to haul cable all the way from an exchange to each property in a service area, or terminate their own fiber, install another RIM, and run copper from the newly installed RIM to premises. Duct work and directional boring isn't cheap, so I'd imagine it wouldn't be a small, nor cheap task.

Last I heard, Telstra were in the process of upgrading their existing RIMs onto their "NextIP" network, which providers greater backhaul capacity. However, with the sheer number of RIMs in Australia I doubt it will be a small task, and I don't envy the infrastructure engineers involved with it.

Just as proof that ISPs aren't being "cheap" with rolling out their own infrastructure:

"In an agreement with ETSA Telecom, Adam Internet will have fibre links to most exchanges in the Adelaide area by May 2005. It will cost $9.6million to install DSLAMs into the 24 exchanges, with the fibre links ensuring it will almost completely avoid the Telstra network."*

"Internode's sister company, Agile Communications, today announced that it has extended its DSLAM rollout to include a further 12 exchanges in South Australia and Victoria."**

"iiNet released an updated DSLAM rollout schedule, with an additional 111 exchanges to be enabled over the next 9 months."***

* Source: http://whirlpool.net.au/news/?id=1403
** Source: http://whirlpool.net.au/news/?id=1331
*** Source: http://whirlpool.net.au/news/?id=1454

HI Guys,

Look i agree, in part to those comments.

I know Internode have tried to get access here as well, the issue is the investment long term is viable, as with most new estates.

The people that live in Mawson Lakes have money, we want internet access- over all im sure that if Adam and Internode and any other providers got together it would spread the cost.

Delfin blame Telstra..It's about profit bottom line, no doubt..

The only way something is going to be done about these "RIMS/CMUX" is if other ISP's take the charge and force Telstra to change their ways with competition for the new estates.

The NBN is a joke and wont happen in our lifetime..!!!

baggy67 writes...

Look i agree, in part to those comments.

Then you might like to go back and edit/retract some of the wildly inaccurate and emotively wrong comments that _you_ made... :)

Adam has ADSL2+ on all the exchanges that service Mawson Lakes, it's just that the majority of phone lines go through RIMs/CMUXs which is something Adam, Internode or any other provider has no control whatsoever over.

You can invest in infrastructure all you like, the fact remains that there is no sure fire way to ensure that the phoneline will connect to that infrastructure, such as in the case of Mawson Lakes and other estates. Telstra control the copper network and that's just about all there is to it.

Another Not-Technology Park Victim.

And just to re-itterate what others have said, Adam are investing in new estates, eg, Lochiel Park.

Mawson Lakes is not new, it's old, and with poor connectivity due to Delfin and Telstra taking the cheap optoin, you seriously can not take this out on Adam or Node, it's very much out of their control.

But people seem to have the mentality that Adam, Node or any other provider can just go out, lay their own cables etc. If only that were true, and were easy.

Lots of new areas in Mawson Lakes like the Cascades and the Bridges.!!

I was one of the first houses on the main street so don't tell me that all of Mawson Lakes is old.

I will say it again just another excuse.!!!

New subdivisions, yes. But they were part of the original plan and all the infrastructure would have been mapped out well in advance

It is well documented that Mawson Lakes is serviced from the Gepps Cross exchange with only fibre runs running from the exchange to the street cabinets. The only way other isps can get access to the copper is to resell telstra wholesale adsl ports.
Unfortunately Telstra have a monopoly on the infrastructure, This on the basis of economics (businesses need to make some money) makes it all but impossible to duplicate the existing infrastructure even if their product is superior, it would just be suicide.

Thats why the feds are/were looking at pumping thousands of millions of dollars into an alternative. Although its looking more and more like Telstra will get their way

RalliArt001 writes...

It is well documented that Mawson Lakes is serviced from the Gepps Cross exchange with only fibre runs running from the exchange to the street cabinets.

No, the areas south of the rail line are Gepps Cross and some areas do have direct copper to the exchange to them just not enough in most cases.There is approximately 600 pairs of direct copper spead over that part of the estate.
North of the rail line is off Salisbury exchange and there is no direct copper to that part.
You can also add in that the early stages of Mawson Lakes also have cable.

Hi All,

The only thing that is going to fix the issue at Mawson Lakes is a new exchange needs to be built here.

Any else is just a band aid..

baggy67 writes...

The only thing that is going to fix the issue at Mawson Lakes is a new exchange needs to be built here.

Sure maybe, but that will also require them to lay new copper to each house etc to the exchange.

Thats a lot of roads, parks, swamps etc that need to be dug up to achieve this.

Likelyhood: None
Expense if done: Ten's of Millions

Cap'n Silver writes...

Thats a lot of roads, parks, swamps etc that need to be dug up to achieve this.

Not really, the ducting out there is ok.
I couldn't see them building a full exchange out there, maybe there was an outside chance of what was done with Caroline Springs with a glorified CMux in a building but FTTN stuffs that idea.

Having looked at all your responses, you're missing the biggest suggestion that the Adam represntitive made.

Move house.

Much less frustration, much less whining, and your problem would be solved. For the people who think the internet is sooo important to them, maybe you should research your area first. Not just moving into an "upcoming" area. Or the pretty adverts for Mawson Lakes on the television. Mawson Lakes is the biggest joke of a suburb for all their advertising. And ive known that since I was 15. I am now 22.

Good luck moving. Might i Suggest avoiding any area built by Delfin.

Hi,

Why would i move house???

Mawson Lakes is one of the best suburbs in Adelaide for everything other than BB.

The issue is here that ISP's need to cough up the cash and actually provide the service that you pay for.!!

baggy67 writes...

Mawson Lakes is one of the best suburbs in Adelaide for everything other than BB.

Yeah, who wouldn't want to live on reclaimed swamp land ;-)

The issue is here that ISP's need to cough up the cash and actually provide the service that you pay for.!!

No, the issue here is that people need to understand what they are actually paying for rather than what they think/wish they were paying for.

drekkus writes...

Not really, the ducting out there is ok.

Not contradicting drekkus, but the ducting would be the only thing that might make it economically possible to deploy a new CAN for a new exchange – that ducting is owned and controlled by Telstra anyway (AFAIK).

Queeg 500 writes...

Yeah, who wouldn't want to live on reclaimed swamp land ;-)

Which is also on a flood plain that is overdue for a flood.

Either way, ISP's have tried to cough up the cash to do it, but have been knocked back from their attempts at trying to fix Telstra and Delfin's dodgy work.

So you can not say that ISP's have no tried, as they have!

Cap'n Silver writes...

So you can not say that ISP's have no tried, as they have!

AFAIK only Internode have looked at doing it and I'm not sure how serious they were and its hard to see how it can be economical for an ISP to install their own equipment next to a RIM.Maybe as a trial it could be interesting and Mawson Lakes might be the type of area where it could work, affluent and limited Broadband availability in parts.
There is at least 1 RIM where it would be difficult to do because there is simply no space in it for a cross connect cable.I wonder if Internode was looking at this one only or if it was multiple sites within the estate.

drekkus writes...

There is at least 1 RIM where it would be difficult to do because there is simply no space in it for a cross connect cable.I wonder if Internode was looking at this one only or if it was multiple sites within the estate.

I believe from memory, Node offered to pay for Telstra to have a bigger "box" to have a cross connect cable/patch panel, and was rejected by Telstra as well.

Basically, Telstra doesn't want to play ball :)

Good on Node at least perhaps they have tried.!!

The same can't be said for our current provider as i liase with the Delfin guys all the time.

It seems that noone is interested in fixing the issue here.!!!

Which i still don't understand???

baggy67 writes...

It seems that noone is interested in fixing the issue here.!!!

Which i still don't understand???

You think its bad now, you should have seen it when ADSL first came out.No one in Mawson Lakes proper could get ADSL.It took someone to realise that the junction cable from Gepps Cross to Salisbury ran right through the middle of the estate (probably after it was hit numerous times) and could be used to supply ADSL to the 1st stages of Mawson Lakes (The Peninsula, Parkview, Shearwater and the Peppercorns).Shearwater has been upgraded further since with a RIM mounted Dslam. Strangly The Peninsular and Parkview haven't and these areas really do suffer alleviated to some extent by cable being available in parts of them.
The rest of Mawson Lakes is CMuxs which have been ADSL enabled from the start but just don't have the capacity to satisfy everyone who applies.
Maybe in hindsight a new exchange would have been the better way to go from the start but this was before ADSL and at a time when RIMs were looked at as the way of the future.

What chances of a transposition do i have??

No chance if on a CMUX, im guessing.!!!

baggy67 writes...

What chances of a transposition do i have??

No chance if on a CMUX, im guessing.!!!

Only one Cmux in Mawson Lakes has copper indirectly going to it and the chances of there being anything spare are very small.
There are 3 RIMs which have copper with only 1 of those having a fair chance of success but due to the complication of there also being a RIM mounted Dslam there as well you would be looking at pot luck to what you end up on.You could try a SSS transposition request via your ISP but its a big risk as it costs something regardless of outcome.

Hi ,

I rang Adam helpdesk today and asked about a transposition. I was told that if i can already get ADSL, Telstra will not even look at it regardless if the request is put through??

Can anyone confirm this is the case??

cheers

baggy67 writes...

I rang Adam helpdesk today and asked about a transposition. I was told that if i can already get ADSL, Telstra will not even look at it regardless if the request is put through??

Can anyone confirm this is the case??

That is true for a normal transposition, which is designed to get you Telstra Wholesale ADSL – there is a process for LSS transposition which theoretically allows for connection to third party DSLAMs such as Adam's, but I don't think many (if any) providers are signed up to use that process as it costs large amounts of money to investigate if the transposition is possible ($150+ from memory) and an even higher amount in addition if a transposition actually goes ahead.

Edit to add: In addition to the large cost impost and very low likelihood of success, the transposition investigation will only be done when there is no adsl on the line – you'd have to cancel the adsl, pay a large fee, then when it's unsuccessful have to pay another setup fee and face the not-insignificant risk of having your port assigned to someone else in the meantime.

Queeg 500 writes...

there is a process for LSS transposition which theoretically allows for connection to third party DSLAMs such as Adam's, but I don't think many (if any) providers are signed up to use that process as it costs large amounts of money to investigate if the transposition is possible ($150+ from memory) and an even higher amount in addition if a transposition actually goes ahead.

Unless you live in the right part of Mawson Lakes its probably not even worth considering IMO.There is only 1 RIM and 1 Cmux where it would be possible and the Cmux is extremely unlikely to have any spare copper available to it.

we're thinking of buying a place in the newer shoalhaven precinct.. what's the likelihood of getting adsl there?

baggy67 writes...

Good on Node at least perhaps they have tried.!!

You're assuming then no other ISP has tried? Remember, just because some make the loudest noise doesn't mean others haven't done the same thing(s) with less fanfare...

tangent23 writes...

we're thinking of buying a place in the newer shoalhaven precinct.. what's the likelihood of getting adsl there?

No direct copper there so naked as an option is out.ADSL will come down to port availability at the Cmuxs.

thanks for the reply.. as long as i can get something out there i'll be happy..

I guess now that Telstra are out of the NBN, nothings going to happen to estates like ML.!!!

Only gets 2.8Mbps!!! what about the people who can't even get adsl2 yet? just because you live in MAWSON LAKES, and apparently "Have Money", why should you get what you want straight up. everything is advertised as "Up To", hey, lets advertise as up to 100Mbs, because the guy who lives next to the exchange might be able to get it?

seriously, stop complaining. Adam arent going to spend 100s of 1000s of dollars upgrading YOUR internet are they?

you also said that the only way to fix the problem was to build a new exchange. you probably do want it next door so YOU get the best speed possible. then when they do build it, i bet YOU complain about all the roadworks that slow you down while they install cables and what not.

and just to check out, is your sync speed dropping or your download? because there is no point blaming adam, if its the server you download off is it? or should adam upgrade those aswell?

LOL..i think you have a serious attitude problem!!

I not saying that i want it straight up, just want what im paying for access to a modern fast broadband network..!!!

If Adam can do it in some Estates then why no all??

I do have money, but that isn't the issue here, we ML residents are willing to pay for high speed internet, if someone is willing to do it.!!!

baggy67 writes...

If Adam can do it in some Estates then why no all??

Because Adam (and other ISPs) can only install equipment in the exchange, but that's not where the problem is. The problem is the crap Telstra wiring between the exchange and people's houses.

we ML residents are willing to pay for high speed internet, if someone is willing to do it.!!!

Only Telstra can do it, since they own the copper. It also comes down to very simple question for Telstra – "will we make a profit?".

you are getting what you pay for. read the description of their adsl2 service....

24000k/1000k is the maximum possible speed of an AdamDirect service, generally only a small percentage of customers will obtain download speeds above 20000k. As the distance from the exchange increases, the speed will decrease accordingly. This decrease is affected by the quality of your phone line, including the internal wiring of your house. It is impossible for Adam Internet to determine the attainable speed prior to your service being active. As a general rule, we will only connect your service if your line will support 1500k or better. Based on a sample of existing AdamDirect customers, the average connection speed obtained is between 6000k/1000k and 8000k/1000k.

how do you propose adam to fix the copper from your house? they don't own the land to dig it up and lay a cable of their own do they. accept that adam are doing their best with what they've got.

I was going to move to Mawson Lakes next year, is there a map showing the 'bad' areas? Not having ADSL2 doesn't bother me, I would be happy with 1500K ADSL.

MookieB writes...

is there a map showing the 'bad' areas?

http://www.adsl2exchanges.com.au/heatmap-state.php?State=SA is probably your best bet.

Check out the map to see the location of exchanges (Gepps Cross is the exchange for Mawson Lakes addresses I believe), as well as the heat map, which is based on people reporting their speeds.

Good luck.

Most of the older areas are fully subscribed. The newer areas will likely fill up just as quickly.