Whirlpool

Hi guys,
Ive got a project on the go and Im looking for advice.

My parents are in an interesting situation:
Right now they have ASDL and one computer at home (with a possble laptop coming soon), a DLINK DSL-G604T (currently wireless is disabled, they only got it because they may be getting a laptop this year some time)

now the interesting part is they also have their business premises 2 doors down the street, probably about 50m away, with the neighbours house inbetween.

They were planning on getting a second internet account for their business premises, but i told them i would investigate the possibility of using wifi to connect the home and business, since they are so close. This would also be handy for working from home or backing up stuff.

So Im looking at this antenna:
https://oztechnologies.com/detail.asp?product=ANT24-0500

So Im wondering:
Firstly, if i replace the single antenna on the DLINK DSL-G604T with this one mounted on(or in) the roof of the home, Will this antennas radiation pattern/strength allow them to still use a wireless laptop around inside the house?

Secondly, Since this antennas 'range' is stated at 500m, i presume it will be quite suitable to reach the workshop, between 50-60m away, through weatherboard walls? Id like to be able to just purchase a couple of wifi adaptors for the workshop (which has 3 computers), or will i have to purchase another access point/client with another outdoor antenna (will if i have to, but may need to save some cash beforehand)?

Buy two wrt54gl units, install dd-wrt and get two of theses or similar. Then get an extension cable to run between the antenna and radio. You'll need one for each end.

Run it all in WDS/AP mode and you've now got a fully meshed wireless network.

Cheers

Your dlink will struggle to get the range you want. Even the wrt54gl is a little deaf but set up correctly with the directional aerials will overcome any low sensitivity issues.

Spending this type of money on a descent setup will quickly repay it's self compared to a second Internet connection.

JP writes...

So Im looking at this antenna:

Man, $90 for a 5db directional? Thats steep.

If you can get line of sight anywhere at all (outside, windows, roof etc.) then your laughing.

PHunt writes...

Man, $90 for a 5db directional? Thats steep.

Yeah, for that much you could get a... 16db yagi. :S (From www.freenet-antennas.com)

If you can get line of sight anywhere at all (outside, windows, roof etc.) then your laughing.

Yep! Easy as pie!

Hardest bit will be getting the one in your shop configured properly. If you follow
Pete's guides (Um, someone will post them here soon enough.) you'll definatly be laughing!

Unless you have direct LOS to each of the PC's in the shop and a clear Fresnel zone then you will have major trouble. At 50 meters most AP's will not be able to penetrate enough signal into the shop. The other trouble you will have is the client signal strength back to the access point.

Try all you want but stability (drop outs) will most likely be the outcome without using a WDS or repeater setup.

Just my two cents worth. :)

sparki writes...

Unless you have direct LOS to each of the PC's in the shop

That'd be a stupid way to do it anyway. As i alluded to earlier, it doesn't matter where on either building you need to be to attain LoS, as you'd be installing a bridge setup with an AP at each end. (running bridge mode, AP-client mode.. whatever) .. This may require, depending on the environment, some small masts, a power over ethernet configuration, maybe some weatherproof boxes for the AP's...

a clear Fresnel zone

You're worrying about frenzel zones over a 50 metre link? pft.

JP writes...

Firstly, if i replace the single antenna on the DLINK DSL-G604T with this one mounted on(or in) the roof of the home, Will this antennas radiation pattern/strength allow them to still use a wireless laptop around inside the house?

Only if you use a low-gain antenna, otherwise signal will be focused away from lower levels too much.

So Im looking at this antenna:
https://oztechnologies.com/detail.asp?product=ANT24-0500

Um, why? Dlink's own antenna is hardly worse than this. In fact if you want to cover your house as well, dlink's own is better as it has lower gain (probably 2 dB or so).

Id like to be able to just purchase a couple of wifi adaptors for the workshop (which has 3 computers)

Nah this won't work. Do this:
First, get the d-link to the roof like you're planning and see if your house coverage is still good enough. If it is, leave it there.

Then, get a *directional* antenna and check if you can see the signal from your business place. It should definitely work, but you might need to elevate it over that building in between.

Connect this antenna to a wrt-54gl (or similar) and connect the three computers using ethernet.

PHunt writes...

Man, $90 for a 5db directional? Thats steep.

It's not directional, it's omnidirectional (ie the oppisite) – and yeah it's a complete rip-off. I mean, internally it's just a bit of coax with a couple of cm of braid stripped off....

(but then again I consider all antennas to be rip-offs since materials needed to produce them are $20 in worst case lol).

PHunt writes...

That'd be a stupid way to do it anyway.

I agree

As i alluded to earlier,

Your post didn't really allude to much at all.

installing a bridge setup with an AP at each end. (running bridge mode, AP-client mode.. whatever)

Running in bridge mode without routing will lead to MAC issues over the network. DHCP may not work because in Bridge mode the MAC's of the PC's behind the bridge will be hidden by the bridges own MAC. My advice would be to run in WDS because you will avoid these types problems. I've got 40+ WET54G bridges sitting here on the shelf because I had to remove them from a wifi network some idiot built using bridges for the clients. The network was completely unreliable. So "whatever" may not be the best option.

You're worrying about frenzel zones over a 50 metre link? pft.

Actually, I was talking about the Fresnel zone and I still think you need more than just a small glimpse of the target. If your looking through a small gap in a line of trees forget about using that omni and make sure you use directional antennas. The foliage will soak up most of the signal otherwise. LOS needs a reasonably clear path, not just LOS when your at 50m with these half deaf wifi units.

Cheers

JP writes...

So Im looking at this antenna:

https://oztechnologies.com/detail.asp?product=ANT24-0500

If you absolutely have to do it this way then this one is about 25% of the price of the one above http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=AR3270&CATID=&keywords=wireless&SPECIAL=&form=KEYWORD&ProdCodeOnly=&Keyword1=&Keyword2=&pageNumber=&priceMin=&priceMax=&SUBCATID=

Lots of help guys, thanks alot.

Ok, I understand now that its not going to work that way. Obviously the Dlink cant put out the power, and the antenna range is very subjective to enviroment/line of site). So Ill just have to get some cash together and do it properly, Im not one to half ass things.

So how does this sound:

OFFICE:
WRT54G in roof with a directional antenna(outside), all computers hardwired to it.

HOME
WRT54G in roof with a direction antenna(outside), hardwired to DLINK DSL-G604T, which will provide wireless access over the house.

if i install DD-WRT on the WRTs, is there a guide or FAQ somewhere how to set them up as a wireless-bridge only, rather than access point?

Also thanks for the links to different antennas, the only reason i chose the one i did because i couldnt really find any others. If i can end up getting a $50/$60 antenna i can surely afford to buy a $70 linksys to go with each.

EDIT:
Just checking out that freenet antennas page and there are alot of options.

If i can get line-of site, would i still need to go all-out on a 16db yagi to make the range (say 60m to be safe)? or will i get away with a cheaper 12db panel?
Im tempted by the 19db parabolic just because its as cheap as the lower db panels... But i dont know if my parents would want something that huge and obvious on the roof of their newly renovated home.

the above will work , but as an aff the shelf solution have a look at this

from the guys at freenet antennas

Point-to-Point Bridge Link

http://store.freenet-antennas.com/product_info.php?products_id=274&osCsid=5dbb4f24e29e1b1e3503c02d504f57a2

With this product, you can quickly install a Point-to-Point (PtP) network bridge link. It comes pre-configured so all you have to do is point-plug-and-play. The equipment is set to 36 dBm output – the maximum effective radiated power that is legal in Australia.

includes

• 2 x 17 dBi Intennas. These fully weatherproof antennas come with integrated pole mounts and can do up to a 20 km link when used as a pair.
  * 2 x 90 mW UltraWAP access points. We install these in the Intennas and pre-configure them for you. While you can change the configuration later if your needs change, you should not need to perform any configuration when delivered.
  * 2 x 20m weatherproof Power over Ethernet (POE) cables. These cables run inside your building and connect to (1) low voltage DC power packs (provided), and (2) your computers or computer networks (LANs).

$648.00

yes it may be a bit more cost , but with a australian backed warranty and great support , these will work 100%

just an option , if there a buisness they can write it off in tax anyhow

This might also be a good read
http://freenet-antennas.com/PHP-Nuke/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=6
They also have some nice hardware for wireless setups.

Yeah i did notice that, i think its a bit out of budget.
By the looks of it i should be able to do it properly for under $400 all up. I dont mind playing with settings and tweaking, and i think this will be a good learning experience for me, so Ill give it a shot setting it up myself.

Glo8al >
niiiice, according to that i should only need the $25 smaller db antennas if i can get LOS..which im pretty sure Ill be able to do.

JP writes...

according to that i should only need the $25 smaller db antennas

Well it depends
This is from the site
"In the cases below, I am assuming 802.11b equipment (11 Mbps) with a 30mW transmitter (most are this or better). If you are using a stronger transmitter, you MAY get by with smaller antennas. If you are using 802.11g (54 Mbps) add 12 dBi to the combined gain, as 802.11g needs a stronger signal to go full speed."

ahh..fair enough.
I will read it all the way through and go through my options tonight after work.
thanks a heap again guys, Its good theres a place to go for advice on this sort of thing from people who know.

Use directional antennae and not dipoles .

pete y testing writes...

Point-to-Point Bridge Link

http://store.freenet-antennas.com/product_info.php?products_id=274&osCsid=5dbb4f24e29e1b1e3503c02d504f57a2

Having just installed a 200m link and an 3 KM link with bits purchased from all over ($1200+ , these guys have got the goods at the right price.

Yes what you need is a point to point bridge, and for 50-500m you only need small simi-directional (sector) antenni, IE anything under say 90' @ 3 to 6 db.

These http://store.freenet-antennas.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_24_26&products_id=90&osCsid=5dbb4f24e29e1b1e3503c02d504f57a2
For $25 each.

Or this http://store.freenet-antennas.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_24_26&products_id=270&osCsid=5dbb4f24e29e1b1e3503c02d504f57a2

You could use a wet piece of string if it wasn't a windy day.

M

Assuming you do have line of site (from roof tops) then a pair of Nanostation5s work out cheaper than the Freenet setup. That said the Freenet kit looks a very nice solution.

http://www.gowifi.co.nz/products/access-points-802.11/ubiquiti-nanostation5.html

The above kits come complete with POE setup etc, just need a couple of UHF TV antenna hockey sticks to mount these and assuming its line of site your away. By using 5.8GHz you will leave the 2.4GHz band clear to use your APs at each end. Mind you with 16dB gain antennas, depening on exactly whats in the way (wooden frame or steel reinforced concrete) you may simply blast through 60m, i have done that with 5.8GHz Canopy units before, but not ideal, plan for line of sight.

The above outfit ships to Aus, there prices are way cheaper than I can find for the Aus dealers, although I may not have found the Aus source dealer. But NZ$190 will work out around A$160 you wont need to pay NZ GST but may need to pay Aus GST.

Both the Freenet and nanostation are overkill for your 60m hop, but to use simple domestic APs will still end up costing to mount outside, and then your stuck with a domestic grade bit of kit. Also by using directional antennas you minimise the interference and local snooping aspects somewhat.

Cyril

As I'm only going a short distance, would the output power of a netgear DIR-300 at each point be enough? they can be picked up a bit cheaper than a WRT and can still install DD-WRT.

Have a look at this perhaps

http://store.freenet-antennas.com/product_info.php?products_id=276

Add external antenna http://store.freenet-antennas.com/product_info.php?products_id=122 and adaptor cable http://store.freenet-antennas.com/product_info.php?products_id=188 to one end of the link and you are done .

OK the antenna is overkill but it will work.

PHunt writes...

Man, $90 for a 5db directional? Thats steep.

For $95 you can get an 24dbi grid antenna!

Access denied writes...

Have a look at this perhaps

http://store.freenet-antennas.com/product_info.php?products_id=276

Add external antenna http://store.freenet-antennas.com/product_info.php?products_id=122 and adaptor cable http://store.freenet-antennas.com/product_info.php?products_id=188 to one end of the link and you are done .

OK the antenna is overkill but it will work.

Thats not bad, you can option it with 2 12dbi panels w/ 3m leads for $210, rather than buying 2 of he overkill antenna + cables. All up $400 for an easy solution is pretty tempting.

At that range any directional antenna will do.

Don't go for too much gain, at this range it will just make pointing harder.

Also check this shop's antennas: http://www.citytechnology.com.au/microbeam/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1_13 , they're cheaper than freenet, particularly at shipping costs.

I have brought from City Technology (aka mircrobeam) before.
Great quality antenna's, and good customer support.

Geez after these prices, its making me gawk at the fact that i was considering a $90 5db antenna. that IS steep.
Thanks for setting me straight guys

Now after looking at city technologys website,
im steering towards 2 of these:
http://www.citytechnology.com.au/microbeam/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_13&products_id=188
with leads:
http://www.citytechnology.com.au/microbeam/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=15_16&products_id=67
and 2 of these, with DD-WRT:
http://www.dlink.com.au/Products.aspx?Sec=1&Sub1=18&Sub2=82&PID=337
All that comes to $250.

Im taking friday off work and im going to scope out the situation and see if i can get line of site from easy-to mount positions (Im thinking the TV Antenna mast should be fine), after that Ill make my final decisions and order parts.

THB, the only way to know if it is going to work is by performing something called a wireless 'site survey'.

I know that is not a lot of help but there are a few good pointers to remember before u start.

802.11 frequency is a free band on the airwaves. What this means is they dont have to pay for the frequency which it modulates at. Since the most of the world governments pose restrictions/taxes/license on the frequencys around the world what would the manufactures choice if they were going to make millions of units?? The answer is simple. Something which is free around the world.

802.11<blah> operates at approximitely 2.4gHz which is the resonate frequency of water and therefore un-useable commerically for radio etc and therefore free :)

So as a simple site survey (which only u can do) I would recommend looking from the modem to the shed in direct line of site! If u can see/imagine these things in the way, it wont work:

-Water (this includes pipes which carry tap water).
-Reflective surface
-Power Lines
-Shiny room (tin) or aluminium roof.

Solution.

Move the modem/router/Accesspoint and the computer away from these issues above.

A wireless B radio has alot greater range than a A radio or a G radio, prehaps 1 meg a sec is better than no megs a sec.

I hope this helps, increase the strenght does sound like the right solution for ur situation as 50-60m is a lot range for 802.11, just check the above so u dont waist ur cash.

JP writes...

Ive got a project on the go and Im looking for advice.

SImple solution , two ap's roof mounted in water proof boxes with directional antennas of no more than 6 or so db gain , anymore that close will blow the aiming and your radios front ends out to the point where you might need to back the output down , cat5e back to your computers and run fixed ip over a vpn like hamachi and team view for remote control and access , your choice of hardware but with mounts ap's and cable/boxes etc less than $500.00 hardware costs.. pm if you need further help
Have fun and good luck

atec77 writes...

SImple solution

He got the right idea, check the line of sight and u will be fine :)

Well Ive been over and had a look,
Line of site is easy, and according to Google maps Im looking at closer to 35m than 50.

Would 8dbi antenna be too much? If so can i just use dd-wrt to on the routers and turn the output power down by half? Or i might make up a brick antenna similar to those on Free-net, though i was hoping from steering away from that.

There are a few metal sheds around, and as you can see there is a water tank beside where i plan to mount the workshop antenna. How will this affect me?

Google Earth View:
http://i340.photobucket.com/albums/o328/jpdyno/googleearth.jpg

View from the roof at the rear of the workshop, Ill put up a small mast at the corner of the house. The best part about this is that i can mount the router inside a room rather in the roof, using a less than 2m cable:
http://i340.photobucket.com/albums/o328/jpdyno/Workshopview.jpg

View from a ladder at the rear of the house. Notice there is a vent from the toilet That i could mount the antenna on. Here there is also cupboard nearby i could also store the router in rather than in the roof, using a less than 3m cable:
http://i340.photobucket.com/albums/o328/jpdyno/homeview.jpg

This is a mockup panaroma of the street, to give you an idea of the distance:
http://i340.photobucket.com/albums/o328/jpdyno/streetview.jpg

IMHO the best option is to have a dedicated bridge set up and a hub at each end. The Ubiquiti units posted earlier would work well and may come out cheaper by the time you buy radios, aerials ect from somewhere else. At $175AUD each delivered, you will have a great link that can be used else where later.

As for the LOS, you will have no problems. It is a very short distance and any directional aerial will do that. Try a cantenna, cheap and they work really well.

Cheers

I have to agree the nanostations would be an ideal solution, cobbling together bits of kit can work out cheaper in parts but more expensive in time, and never really works as well.

Other than that the cantennas or freenets $25 6dB bricks would easily do the trick, 35m is not far. Directional antennas would help with the local reflectors you have about (water tower etc) and give you the link gain you need to ensure a good signal strength to ensure good throughput.

Cyril

JP writes...

Would 8dbi antenna be too much?

Possibly , but then you can low the radio output and I guess you will have to accept the wonderful signal you get from all the receive gain

This is a mockup panaroma of the street,

remember you should be using ready made cable and if it is fixed cables then you need a trady , however it will work easily and well judging from the images , if you have los and metal behind the mounts most of the siganl will be well directed with less access for those wishing to steal bandwidth... turn the power down until the link is maintained but from the ground it should be almost undetectable .