Whirlpool

Having been told by Telstra for the past few years that I cannot be connected to ADSL because of distance and transmission loss (I am 7.2 km from the exchange), I recently applied for ADSL2 when the local exchange was upgraded out of idle curiosity. To my delight, I was told that. sorry, I can't get ADSL2, but I can get ADSL1. After looking whistfully at the 1500 to 8000kbps plan, I erred on the side of caution and signed up with Westnet for 1500 kbps.

It has been a couple of weeks now and all seems to be well. I have been consistently getting around 1300 kbps from speedtest.net. I decided to try the higher plan to see what would happen. It was switched on today. I had no serious expectation that I would get anything near 8000 kbps, but even a doubling of speed to 3000 kbps would be worth the extra money.

Howeve the first speed tests produced a surprising result – I have gone backwards from 1300 kbps to 1200 kpbs.

Can anyone offer a technical explanation for this loss of speed?

Thanks.

If you are far from the exchange, you will lose speed.

heymansP writes...

Howeve the first speed tests produced a surprising result – I have gone backwards from 1300 kbps to 1200 kpbs.

Higher frequencies induce higher losses, basically. You're in a situation where I would very highly recommend going back to 1.5Mbit and staying there.

elithrar writes...

Higher frequencies induce higher losses, basically. You're in a situation where I would very highly recommend going back to 1.5Mbit and staying there.

That makes sense – I will follow your advice.

On the flip side of the coin, services faster than 1.5 utilise interleaving.

A bit of a google, and I found this easy to read (well, it was for me!) article on interleaving http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/interleaving.htm

Hi heymansP,

Online speed testing websites are notorious for inaccuracy – I suggest you post the stats from your modem (if you don't know how, let me know which modem you have and I can give you instructions) and also do a speed test from 3FL (http://www.3fl.net.au/speedtest).

Nayeem Satar writes...

(http://www.3fl.net.au/speedtest)

I assume being an 3FL link it's free for Westnet users? I would hope so because I see a file called 100mb test file ;)

The files link to the 3FL Mirror:

ftp://mirror.3fl.net.au/pub/speedtest

So yes, they will not be counted toward your quota if you get other 3FL traffic for free.

Nayeem Satar writes...

So yes, they will not be counted toward your quota if you get other 3FL traffic for free.

Just to clarify what Nayeem has mentioned here, if you are on an eligible plan, 3FL traffic won't be counted towards your limit (in fact, it will be unmetred traffic, and as such will not show up in the 'Free' column in the usage area of MyAccount).

Further information on the Westnet Neighbourhood, including eligible plans, can be found by visiting this page

This thread was originally posted to the Broadband forum, not the Westnet forum, but a moderator moved it because I happened to mention the name of the ISP. It was a question about ADSL technology and, for the record, is in no way a criticism of Westnet. I asked for the thread to be moved back, but the request has been ignored. No doubt the moderator has his or her reasons.

I am well aware of the vagaries of speed testing, but the speed tests were all performed on speedtest.net, so should be consistent relative to each other. At 1500 kbps I consistently recorded 1300 kbps, but at 1500 to 8000 kbps, the speed has dropped to approx. 1200 kbps and is less consistent

When I requested the upgrade I had no high expectation that it would work as I am 7.2 km from a rural exchange. I suspect the only reason that I can get ADSL at all is because I have had ISDN in the past and Telstra cleaned up the line to enable me to get it. No one else around me has access to ADSL.

I was just seeking a technical explanation for why the speed might drop when the plan was upgraded to the higher speed.

I have discussed the situation with Tech Support who recommended that I drop back to a 1500 kbps plan. That should happen tomorrow. I am happy with that outcome. In fact, I am happy that I can get ADSL at all.

I read the article about interleaving, but I am unsure that it is worth paying extra money for an intangible result.

Modem stats:

DSL Status: Up
DSL Modulation Mode: GDMT
DSL Path Mode: FAST
Downstream Rate: 1536 Kbps
Upstream Rate: 512 Kbps
Downstream Margin: 14 db
Upstream Margin: 16 db
Downstream Line Attenuation: 29
Upstream Line Attenuation: 0
Downstream Transmit Power: 0
Upstream Transmit Power: 0

Connection: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
Encapsulation: RFC 2516 PPPoE
Multiplexing: LLC
QoS: UBR
Pcr Rate: 0
Scr Rate: 0
Autodetect: Disable
VPI: 8
VCI: 35
Enable: Yes
PVC Status: Applied — OK

Those sync rates to me do not look right.

The downstream of 1536Kbps is a very 'exact' number to get on your specific plan. With regards to the upstream you should be syncing at 384Kbps not 512Kbps.

The best thing to try first will be an isolation test.
http://whirlpool.net.au/wiki/?tag=isolation_test

After that the next thing would be to see if you can confirm those line statistics with another modem.

If you need help at any stage of troubleshooting, please call Support on on 1300 786 068 as we will be more then happy to help resolve this issue.

If the results concur with another modem I would defiantly call Support as the coding on the ADSL port at the exchange appears to be incorrect. This in return would be causing the issues that you are experiencing and can be fixed easily after we log a fault.

Edit: spelling

Thanks – but I am satisfied that my phone line will not support the higher speed. It was simply an experiment that did not work out.

heymansP writes...

Thanks – but I am satisfied that my phone line will not support the higher speed. It was simply an experiment that did not work out.

You have a DS atten that is 29. Your line is definitely capable of supporting speeds higher than 1.5mbit. It's a programming error. Ring support and ask the level one guys to talk to their service assurance team about this.

The 512kbps US sync rate indicates the programming issue. As Jason said 8mbit services are programmed at 8032/384.

It's a programming error. Once it's sorted out you'll get much better speeds. I hope you haven't already logged a speed change to downgrade to 1.5mbit again...

Thanks for the advice. You just caught me in time – I will call Westnet tech Support again before I revert to the 1500 kbps plan.

Thanks, Saiphon. you may have hit the nail on the head. Westnet Tech Support investigated further and it appears the plan upgrade was not processed correctly at the Telstra end. Not sure if you would call that a "programming error" or an "administrative error", but hopefully it will go through correctly tonight and I will have the opportunity to test ADSL 1500 to 8000 kbps at a range of 7.2 km from our rural exchange tomorrow morning!

heymansP writes...

7.2 km from our rural exchange + Downstream Line Attenuation: 29dB =

You're not 7.2km away from the exchange. 29dB is likely to see about 6-8Mbit on DSL1, and if you've got that thicker rural copper you would probably see 10-12Mbit+ on DSL2+.

I am physically 7.2 km from the exchange, the telephone line follows the road (it's the only possible route) and I have been told that I cannot get ADSL2.

That's how it all started. I have been told for years that I cannot get ADSL. When the local exchange was upgraded to ADSL2, I applied just to see what would happen. When the Telstra tech went to the exchange to connect me up, he reported back that I can't get ADSL2, but I can get ADSL1.

If that's wrong, then please beam me up to ADSL2+, Scottie!

heymansP writes...

Thanks, Saiphon. you may have hit the nail on the head.

Not a problem. Let us know how things are in the morning ;-)

saiphon writes...

Not a problem. Let us know how things are in the morning ;-)

Much the same (sigh). I disconnected and then reconnected at about 8:00 am this morning:

Speedtest.net speed test was 1310 kbps and

DSL Status: Up
DSL Modulation Mode: GDMT
DSL Path Mode: FAST
Downstream Rate: 1536 Kbps
Upstream Rate: 512 Kbps
Downstream Margin: 14 db
Upstream Margin: 16 db
Downstream Line Attenuation: 29
Upstream Line Attenuation: 0
Downstream Transmit Power: 0
Upstream Transmit Power: 0

heymansP writes...

Downstream Rate: 1536 Kbps
Upstream Rate: 512 Kbps

still hasn't been fixed.

Jason.G writes...

still hasn't been fixed

Absolutely correct – Westnet Tech support contacted Telstra this morning. Apparently the upgrade is now subject to a "manual assessment". Apparently, the Telstra rep was unable to offer any definition of what that actually means or how long it will take.

Westnet seem to be crawling all over the problem, so we will just wait and see..

It has taken a few days, but my 1500 to 8000 plan now appears to have been activated. Telstra had to change my connection to a different DSLAM in the exchange.

So, using the same speedtest.net speed test, I am now getting 2300 kbps, compared with the 1300 kbps that I was getting on the 1500 kbps plan. Nearly double the speed.

According to the the well known Internode graph (http://www.internode.on.net/residential/internet/home_adsl/extreme/) I should not be getting anything at 7.2 km from the exchange, so I am quite pleased with the outcome.

Downloading the 10 Mb file from the 3FL website, the transfer rate was 276 Kb/sec.

Modem stats:

DSL Status: Up
DSL Modulation Mode: NOT TRAINED
DSL Path Mode: INTERLEAVED
Downstream Rate: 2704 Kbps
Upstream Rate: 655 Kbps
Downstream Margin: 6 db
Upstream Margin: 5 db
Downstream Line Attenuation: 59
Upstream Line Attenuation: 32
Downstream Transmit Power: 0
Upstream Transmit Power: 0

What does "DSL Modulation mode: NOT TRained" mean?

Thanks.

heymansP writes...

Downloading the 10 Mb file from the 3FL website, the transfer rate was 276 Kb/sec.

Downstream Line Attenuation: 59

Looks like you are basically getting your fastest speed available due to the distance you are from the exchange.

http://fremnet.net/article/216/adsl-theoretical-speed-calculator

heymansP writes...

What does "DSL Modulation mode: NOT TRained" mean?

BTW: That doesn't sound good, it usually means it can't get your DSL going.

Is your DSL Modulation Mode set to G.dmt ?

Is your DSL Modulation Mode set to G.dmt ?

No – it is set to Multimode. What should it be set to?

You seemed to imply that it should be set to G,dmt, so I changed it to that and speed went up. New DSL stats are as follows:

DSL Status: Up
DSL Modulation Mode: GDMT
DSL Path Mode: FAST
Downstream Rate: 2848 Kbps
Upstream Rate: 672 Kbps
Downstream Margin: 6 db
Upstream Margin: 6 db
Downstream Line Attenuation: 56
Upstream Line Attenuation: 31
Downstream Transmit Power: 0
Upstream Transmit Power: 0

heymansP writes...

You seemed to imply that it should be set to G,dmt, so I changed it to that and speed went up. New DSL stats are as follows:

Much better... Yes, Westnet support told me its better set to Gdmt when I was talking to them awhile ago. But I don't recall their setup docs saying that, so perhaps they should considering adding that as the majority of modems default to 'multimode".

heymansP writes...

DSL Path Mode: INTERLEAVED

heymansP writes...

DSL Path Mode: FAST

I noticed too, when you were set to 'multimode' your DSL path was "interleaved" which is actually what telstra sets their 8MB ADSL too, which in turn causes a higher ping rate.

But now your set your to GDMT, you not only improved your Downstream rate, but got rid of that annoying 'interleaving'.

Interleaving decreases the chance that noise on a line will cause data transmission errors. Its active on your line by measuring the first hop ping. If it is under 20ms, interleaving is disabled. If it is above 35ms, interleaving is enabled.

However, in your case turning it off via GDMT has improved your downstream rate. And your Down/Upstream Margin is still only 6db. I find that very interesting.

I do love Whirlpool and all the nice helpful people here. When I first started this thread, I just assumed that my line would not support the higher speed. Thanks to everyone who contributed their knowledge and experience, not only have I learned heaps about ADSL (I did read all the articles and a few more), but I managed to get the line sorted out and am now getting about 2700 to 3000 kbps (depends which speed test). I was previously getting 1300 kbps on ADSL and 1450 kbps from my local WISP, so that is approx double the speed.

I'm happy with that outcome.

Thanks for all your help.

Just a quick question, how do I get my modem stats, and how do I change settings? (Siemens 6520).

Try 10.0.0.138 to get into your modems admin page. Username and password are probably both admin. From there just wander around the menus, you are bound to find it.

SEELE 01 writes...

Try 10.0.0.138 to get into your modems admin page.

Thanks mate! :D for you.

Yes, if you do that it should present an admin login page for the modem.

Matt

Matt Hutchinson writes...

Yes, if you do that it should present an admin login page for the modem.

Thanks Matt, do you know where I should find these settings?

Oi³ writes...

But now your set your to GDMT, you not only improved your Downstream rate, but got rid of that annoying 'interleaving'.

Interleaving decreases the chance that noise on a line will cause data transmission errors. Its active on your line by measuring the first hop ping. If it is under 20ms, interleaving is disabled. If it is above 35ms, interleaving is enabled.

However, in your case turning it off via GDMT has improved your downstream rate. And your Down/Upstream Margin is still only 6db. I find that very interesting.

Isn`t 8 Mbit ADSL through Telstra Wholesale at ADSL1 spec anyway? ADSL1 being the G.DMT standard anyway?
And fact that interleaving for the 8Mbit ADSL 1 profile is enabled at the providers end, meaning that interleaving will be in place regardless of the modulation standard you select?

Oi³ writes...

And your Down/Upstream Margin is still only 6db. I find that very interesting

Is that good for 7.2 km from the exchange?

Thats what I was always told. When on the 8Mbit connection interleaving is the only way to obtain the higher data rates. I have posted on the westnet forums previously in regards to pings on both 1.5Mbit and 8Mbit if you want some more details on interleaving.

To have ADSL at all is a fantastic result at 7.2km from the exchange! Enjoy it. :)

Alexander Hill writes...

Enjoy it. :)

I am, I am.

Now we know it is possible, I will try to get a few neighbours connected too.

heymansP writes...

Is that good for 7.2 km from the exchange?

Hello Heymans,

Just a quick one, there is no way you would be 7km from the exchange, as if you were, there is no way Telstra would have provisioned ADSL. The chances are, you are on a RIM which is closer to you than the exchange is. But then again, the stats you posted are in line with being on ADSL2+, (which is not available on a RIM), as you are getting over 600kbps for upstream, and your DSL Path is FAST. (Normally on 8Mbps TWS connections it would be INTERLEAVED).

With your line stats the way they are, there is no difference in download speed between ADSL1 and ADSL2+.

topher1976 writes...

The chances are, you are on a RIM which is closer to you than the exchange is.

In the days when it was possible to talk with Telstra Countrywide directly (if you call their number these days, you just go to one of the main Telstra call centres), one of their technical staff in Toowoomba did a detailed assessement of my line for ADSL.

7.2 km from the exchange is the distance he gave, so unless the RIM has been installed more recently, I believe that I am 7.2 km from the exchange.

heymansP writes...

7.2 km from the exchange is the distance he gave, so unless the RIM has been installed more recently, I believe that I am 7.2 km from the exchange.

I had a tech come to me and say i was 4.5km from the exchange where I am. I have ADSL2+, and it syncs at 15Mbps... so I am only 1.5km from exchange.

So not meaning to bag any Telstra techs, seems that he may have told you the wrong info. If you were 7.2k from exchange, you would not have ADSL. Signal loss would be too high.

topher1976 writes...

Signal loss would be too high.

I understand what you are saying, but Westnet Tech Support seem to regard it as credible.

Paul PC writes...

but Westnet Tech Support seem to regard it as credible.

It's not the first time I've been told wrong details just to fob me off, or that I've come across the same sort of things in here with people over the years being told incorrect information by the big T's techs – no you can't get adsl, when really they can... lots of stories of people getting ADSL with Bigpond, but were unable to with anyone else – and when they publish the fact, they lose their connection – not funny.

7.2 Kms is just too far for ADSL without some type of intervening device, like a repeater or rim, etc.

Maybe they added in some type of repeater for the ISDN, and it happens to be compatible with ADSL?

But anyway, it doesn't really matter, you've got it now and that's good.

spicks and speckled writes...

But anyway, it doesn't really matter, you've got it now and that's good.

Yes, it's soo much better than what I had before :-)