Whirlpool

How efficient are these new Heat Pump hot water systems and are they worth the money?

It's reverse cycle refrigeration, to many things to go wrong, your better of with solar and gas boost system.

They have the potential to be as reliable as your fridge but as it's a new tech there's no history to look at regarding reliability. They're not reverse cycle they simply use the condensor to heat the water. At the end of the day an efficient gas system or solar is still the best option. I'd only look at them if I had no option but electric. In that case they'd be more efficient. Changing a compressor is far dearer than changing an element or a main gas valve.

I am building a new house and will be installing a heat pump.

Does anyone here have one and if so, how has it been?

I can't get natural gas, only LPG at $100 a bottle so gas is out of the question.

I have only known one person with a heatpump and she said hers was noisy and given the chance, she'd move it away from the house. Supposed to be very efficient and worth the money.

Heat pump air conditioners can be up to 300% efficient i.e. for a 2kw electrical input they can put out upto 6kw of heat energy because they take heat from the outside and pump it inside via the refrigeration cycle.

I assume the hot water ones would have similar efficiency, but are expensive, and costly to repair and possibly noisy as people have mentioned.

I was thinking of one and trying to use the cold air it pumps out and direct it into my roof space in the summer to help keep the house heat down.

It looks like the heat pumps have a decible rating of around 50dB.

Normal conversation is supposed to be around 60dB.

I suppose it depends on where you put it and I think you can get a shroud to go around it to help reduce the noise.

After a while you would probably tune it out anyway, like my wife's nagging :)

subyroo writes...

How efficient are these new Heat Pump hot water systems and are they worth the money?

It would be great if you could use the cooling energy for another application.

I used to service a heat pump which heated a 5 star hotel pool to 30 degrees, as well it cooled the surrounding building which had a lot of glass windows. A great idea - use both the heating and cooling aspects :)

I'm in a similar boat currently; am getting a quote for putting gas in, but expect that to be several thousands. Solar without gas isn't really that great, as boost would be on normal power. Energy Australia currently has a special on the Rheem Heat Pumps at $2100, so am considering it, but am concerned about the noise (more neighbours' complaints, as it would be sited away from the bedrooms).

Is there anywhere to see (and hear) these heat pumps in action? And do different brands have better/worse noise profile?

The heat pump hotwater systems arent that new. I remember these being installed in a Nursing Home in 1992.

A lot of age care premises are now using them.

WARNING - my neighbour just installed one of these Quantum b@#$%ards outside the new home he has built. To say that it is noisy it to put it MILDLY. It makes a high-pitched fan whirring / whining noise akin to a noisy air conditioner and is much more irritating in pitch than a swimming pool pump. Since it appears to run at any time, day or night, it can (and does) keep us awake at night.

Since he hasn't got a single energy saving lamp in the house (the halogens are on all the time) it seems a total waste of money to me, but each to his own.

This will no doubt end in tears as there's no way we're putting up with this level of noise. If it was a swimming pool pump it would be governed by the QLD Govt noise regulations. So now we're writing to council, the EPA and the manufacturer to complain.

Buyer beware.

Actually the noise it makes and how much it will annoy the neighbours is a concern for me, considering our houses will be close together.

The last thing I want is to move into a new house and immediately get the neighbours offside!

The govt has the $8000 rebate for solar hot water systems now, I wonder if I would be better off going solar, although I am still worried about the initial cost and running out of hot water.

ALso our household water will be supplied from a 30,000 litre in-ground concrete tank. Will that have an impact?

Hi , we installed a Quantum heat pump hot water system circa 1995 , still going strong , and it plugs into a normal power point.

Edit , we are in the country and running it from a 20,000 gallon in ground tank, so no problems from that end either.

Evil Sinner writes...

Edit , we are in the country and running it from a 20,000 gallon in ground tank, so no problems from that end either

Cheers for that :)

grumpalumpa writes...

The govt has the $8000 rebate for solar hot water systems now, I wonder if I would be better off going solar, although I am still worried about the initial cost and running out of hot water.

It's actually for solar cells, not hot water, and you need at least a 1KW system to get that full $8K rebate; costs for those, installed, starts at $20K last time I looked...

Solar hot water just get the RECS, and at best is around the $1K mark.

on the weekend i saw a solar powr, just over 1kw for $6500

PHL writes...

It's actually for solar cells, not hot water, and you need at least a 1KW system to get that full $8K rebate; costs for those, installed, starts at $20K last time I looked...

Ouch ! Well, I won't be doing that then :)

macmanluke writes...

on the weekend i saw a solar powr, just over 1kw for $6500

Getting a bit OT perhaps, but got a link or contact info ??. I'm looking at solar power at the moment and your generally looking at about that sort of cost after the $8K rebate has been deducted.

PHL writes...

It's actually for solar cells, not hot water, and you need at least a 1KW system to get that full $8K rebate; costs for those, installed, starts at $20K last time I looked...

Around $14-$15K for a 1kW grid connect system (ie no batteries), so $6-$7K after the rebate. That's for a system with decent quality components. There are cheaper, but the quality drops rapidly.

I installed a Quantum 270 litre heat pump 10 months ago. Its installed in the roof space and connected to the off peak meter (OP 2 about 17 hours a day).

My last power bill showed a daily average off peak usage of 3.7KW compared with 13.8 a year ago before the heat pump.

It is efficient, but is it worth the money. The net cost after selling the RECs was about $2700, and a standard off peak system would be about $1000.

I pay 7.5 cents (including GST) for an off peak KW so I am saving 75 cents per day, it will take 2266 days or 6.2 years to recover the additional $1700. I am confident it will last more than 6.2 years so I recon it was worth it.

As for the noise, I admit its not quiet, but in my house its not obtrusive. Its in the roof (attic) next to the kids play room / TV room / guest room. You know when the unit is running, but my guests sleep in the room and don't find it noisy.

Quantum prefer the unit to be installed outside, and if that meant next to the house 2 metres from a neighbours window, you would not be popular.

subyroo writes...

are they worth the money?

Many factors involved in determining "worth" - but your profile says you are in Brisbane, therefore I'd suggest go Solar - with tank on the roof if you can then no motors necessary - and most of the year you will hardly even need the booster to cut in.

We used to actually turn our booster off altogether during the warmer months. ($0.00!)

The last hailstorm wiped both the neighbours solar hot water systems.

Ouch!

Weren't they insured?

...We lost about 6 colour bond steel roofing sheets - but were in with the lucky ones - many others around us have got tile roofs. Fortunately, storms like that don't come around every day!

macmanluke writes...

on the weekend i saw a solar powr, just over 1kw for $6500

Is that installed before rebate? I've looked at a few, and they like to take the rebate out of the price first, and don't include install "as each situation is different, so we quote that separately after we have a look".

ssitassits writes...

Weren't they insured?

Although they are supposed to be stronger nowadays and extremely unlikely to be damaged by hail, the warranty specifically excludes hail damage. Not all insurance covers hail.
Both neighbours took quite a while to get the solar units replaced. It seems that solar is more suited to areas that don't get hail :(

We've just had to replace our electric HWS (dead) and have gone for a heat pump - it's being installed tomorrow.

I am concerned about the noise - although it will be on a side of the house that adjoins a park, so no neighbours there, but I'm hoping it's not too bad.

Even though we're in Qld solar was going to be too difficult, according to the guy we spoke to. House not facing a good direction, connections were a different type to the electric HWS so would require re-wiring, etc. It may have been rubbish but we're without hot water at the moment and don't have the luxury of considering our options for a while...

Hopefully by tomorrow night I can report back about the noise...

Dead Parrot writes...

Hopefully by tomorrow night I can report back about the noise...

Well, which one did you get, how did the install go, and how was the noise level like?

I have a Quantum heat pump installed in my garage - its probably not as efficient as installing outside but there were no hassles with any noise impacts on neighbours. It was also easier siting the pump as a direct replacement for the electric HWS. I installed a vent directly above the heat pump so it can draw hot air from the roof space.

I did have visions of using the cold air to cool the house during summer but its very hit and miss.

I am a bit suprised at some of the claims of noise in earlier posts as my office is only one brick wall away from the garage - I can hear the pump come on and when it is running but certainly no noise impact on working etc.

Dead Parrot writes...

House not facing a good direction

Appreciate that this is an old thread but rather post here than start a new one and be flamed for doing so.

I live in Brisbane and have been told the same that because the roofs face east west I will only benefit during the latter part of the day. An option would be to install raised and angled panels but that increases the cost and looks unsightly rather like having a satelitte dish.

I am tending to the heat pump idea especially now that the means test has been scrapped. It is only after reading this thread that I have started to be concerned about the possible noise levels. The current location of the electric-heated hot water tank is beside the air-conditioner compressors. Installing a heat pump in the same location would mean a higher combined noise level. Can someone recommend low-noise reliable makes?

@ MovieDude

Heat pump systems nowadays are around 50-52 db at around 1.5m (which is the average distance between where the unit is installed and the most used hot water outlet = the kitchen), which is quieter than almost all but the very smallest aircon compressors, and besides they only run for a few hours per day, on average, depending on where you live and the time of the season, whenever they need to replenish themselves. If you are on a continuous tariff you can minimise the amount of use that might take place at night, which is generally the problem with off-peak, as some units have computerised timers on board that allow you to tweak the hours of operation.
Most local units aren't of the same quality as say European brands (like Stiebel Eltron), since companies like Dux and Rheem have really been forced into the field by changes in government policy over the past few years. This is a terrible indictment on the local hot water industry when you think about it. However there are some good niche players about like Skyline who purport to have units with COP (coefficient of performance) ratings of over 5. This is equivalent to a 5 star energy rating!
For my money, if I were installing one of these things, (have an electric boosted Apricus evacuated tube system) I'd want to check them out, http://www.skylineenergy.com.au, and also Stiebel.

Ive got a Quantum Heat pump type and its in the garage.
Works better than outside as it uses the waste heat from the car when I drive it into the garage,and gets the waste heat out of the roof space thru I duct I made.
I cant hear it at all unless Im in the garage,and even then its not noisy.
Uses around 1 KWH a day.

Klaatu

good luck with the noise---they are using neg.sounds now on ships etc where the noise is constant like from the engines---so if you have a pos.sound they can make the neg.sound to equal the pos sound--and then you have no sound.
they were saying the db's equal close to speach levels--so once he has the neg.sound it would not cost much to amp that signal up to a voice level--maybe an outdoor waterproof speaker---so the tech is available to overcome any noise as long as its constant---as per your sample of neg.noise

@smolioli
Looks like they either manufacture their own or rebrand. Though I value your recommendation I am tending to choose a "known" brand. Have you used them?

@SuperDude
The problem is that the heat pump will cycle on and off throughout the day.

Just had a Dux heat pump HWS installed yesterday and I'll see how it all goes.

It was quite a good deal, and worked out cheaper after rebates than just getting an electric HWS put in, which surprised me a bit. Why would you bother with the old tech?

I haven't noticed the noise, but the unit sit outside so it's not an issue.

MovieDude writes...

@smolioli
Looks like they either manufacture their own or rebrand. Though I value your recommendation I am tending to choose a "known" brand. Have you used them?

Then I would go with the Dux (local brand, Japanese owned) at 30 REC's points, and a noise output of 50db, followed by a Quantum (Australian through and through).

No, haven't used one myself. As mentioned I have an electric-boosted rooftop system, although I was evaluating heat pumps quite extensively during the time I was shopping around to replace the old electric HWS. In the end the roof based system was too compelling to walk away from (even though it cost more to install), given the solar characteristics of my house.

May I ask why you're considering a heat pump over rooftop solar?

Cheers.

khangu writes...

Just had a Dux heat pump HWS installed yesterday and I'll see how it all goes.

Hi,

May I ask the same question as posed to MovieDude? What made you choose a heat pump over rooftop solar as a replacement for you old electric HWS? Convenience, cost of swapover, house location, efficiency or perhaps something else? Just curious...

Regards.

@smolioli
My roofs face east-west which I am told is not ideal. The strongest sun is after midday so I would need solar panels installed on the west roof. But because the sun is north of us I would need to raise and angle the panels from the roof and this in my mind is unsightly and more costly too.
Heat pumps seems the way forward; I understand that they have a lower purchase and installation cost over solar panels but will have a higher running cost. Yet, it still seems to be the best option for me.

smolioli writes...

May I ask the same question as posed to MovieDude?

For my situation, the quotes for solar and heat pump was about the same, but I chose the heat pump option because it was more convenient.

From a quick bit of research, I got the 'feeling' that solar was:

1. More prone to breakdown and damage, either by hail or just the complexity of the device. I think there are more parts that could go wrong somewhere.

2. My North facing roof is on the opposite side of the house to the kitchen & bathrooms, so I was also worried about loss of heat in the water over the long travel distance.

3. More maintenance, and work – especially with turning on the electric booster on cold cloudy days. That just seem troublesome to me. Plus I was worried about having to get on the roof to clean or maintain the solar panels. (NOT too sure if I needed to, but it was in the back of my mind...)

None of this is based on fact, but more on gut feel after a bit of reading. I could be wrong on all of that. Please do your own research! :-)

I've had a Quantum system installed since about Aug or Sept 2008 – seems great.

Power bill is down a way.

Didn't go with a rooftop solar system due to access issues, alignment issues and climate as a minor factor.

Does make a bit of noise due to the quantity of air moved, but not too bad.

@taslos
Does it make this noise constantly and what have your daily temperatures been?

MovieDude writes...

@taslos
Does it make this noise constantly and what have your daily temperatures been?

It makes the noise when running, which is really only after a reasonable amount of hot water is used. It isn't annoying IMHO – I have slept in the bedroom near it (prob only 4 metres from the unit to the window, and the window is on the side that it does blow the air out of. But then perception of noise is a variable thing and where I live is very quiet so you hear everything.

It is no noisier than the outside Daikin split systems IMO.

Temps – I'm in NW Tassie, so the (normal) daytime is 20-24 degrees for the warmer ½ of the year, night 8-15 degrees . The coldest normal temp is about 2 degrees overnight where I am and up to about 15-16 in the day.

The unit seems to recover pretty quickly from being used, and at a guess would only run for maybe 4-5 hours a day from 2 adults + baby + washing...... and we both have long showers.

Thanks. We have 2 and a half adults and currently use an electric hws with a 150 litre tank. May I ask what size tank you have installed as I was thinking of going for either a 250 or 310 litre when I upgrade the hws.

I had one of the original Quantum units from 2000 when they released their orginal 340litre systems.

It was great for the first 3 years, but 1 month out of warranty it developed a leak in the coolant system – this is a major flaw with these units as they bond the heat exchange pipes to the outside of the tank and they are not serviceable – so the unit was a write off.

We whinged loud enough at Quantum that they gave us a free replacement in the end.

The new unit is definitely louder than the old – it has a smaller fan on the condenser – but still OK enough that it is in our basement/storage area under the house (directly under the kids bedrooms) and is not heard – the waste cool air is also good for cooling a wine cellar !.

We have ours on a time (although they do not recommend this) so that is only comes on in the lowest tarrif times – 10PM to 7AM.

We have it hooked to an old 250 litre electric unit (that is not plugged in) and use a small circulating pump.

For 5 people in our house the unit costs about $40 per quarter in electricity.

So in summary – great units but be aware that if they get a coolant leak then they are a write off.

Craig

Rather than start a new thread I thought I'd revive this one... I'm getting a Dux 250L Heat Pump system soon and just wondering what the Dux owners think of theirs? I'm going to set up the concrete platform outside in advance. It's going down the side of the house, nowhere near windows so it shouldn't be audible in the slightest.

There is nothing wrong with the electric system it's replacing (apart from the fact that its a money sucking electric!) but it is over 20 years old and I'm really quite lucky its still working, it's end of life can't be too far away. I can't find the capacity of my current tank but I know it's over 300L – I have a house of 4 here, we never run out of hot water but I'm wondering if the 250L system will be a problem? It's smaller but will heat up throughout the day so it's probably fine right?

I'm wondering if it's possible to have these Heat Pump systems boosted by gas rather than electricity? My house is connected to gas but not in use currently.

We had a Solarhart system installed for $3500 (too many trees casting shadows on our roof to get solar), and apparently we qualify for approx $3000 rebate from the federal and NSW gvts (combined).

Having said that, we are still waiting on our rebate payments after about 2 months. Anyone know how long these actually take to come through

The system is no noisier than an air con, and we get plenty of hot water. I havent had an electric bill yet, so cannot comment on efficiency

*Buster* writes...

(too many trees casting shadows on our roof to get solar)

That's the reason I am now also considering a heat pump rather than solar hot water – I'd have to cut down too many trees on the northern side (live on a bush block).

There are also new govt incentives on the way, I believe, such as interest-free loans...

But wouldn't one normally put a heat pump in the ground, obviating all noise repercussions?

Cheers,

LMH

carioca writes...

But wouldn't one normally put a heat pump in the ground

Different type of "heat pump" here... this is more like reverse-cycle airwater-conditioning.

curto writes...

For 5 people in our house the unit costs about $40 per quarter in electricity.

We considered a heat pump when we replaced the off peak hot water system and after investigation we found solar to expensive even after rebates $6,000, heat pump $3,000 and instant gas $2,000 the running costs were similar but it was the cost outlay and the pay back time was why we settled on a instant gas. We replaced the hot water 2 years ago.

The quarterly cost is $40 and I have 3 females who like long showers.

colin15 writes...

after investigation we found solar to expensive even after rebates $6,000

That's quite a system you must need! We are just about to install solar, and we are going for the 'good' option; evacuated tubes, 315L stainless tank; after rebates it's costing about $2500. Heat pump was going to be cheaper to install, but the noise factor and ongoing maintenance costs made solar look the better option.

We obtained 2 quotes for solar, Solarhart and Edwards and as our house is split level and trees shading the north facing roof solar was not a vaible option based on cost.

We also considered a heat pump and we found this to be cheaper but not as cheap as gas. The main advantage of gas was that we only pay for what we use and we have the added benefit of a temparture gauge in the bathroom so that you can adjust accordingly especially with children around.

colin15 writes...

The main advantage of gas was that we only pay for what we use and we have the added benefit of a temparture gauge in the bathroom so that you can adjust accordingly especially with children around.

You're referring to instant hot water systems which can be run from gas or electricity.

Yes I am referring to instant gas unit by Rheem the model we chose heats 26 litres of water per minute.

The deal breaker for us in selecting gas was how long it would take to pay the unit off from savings in energy costs. Gas will take us about 2 years whereas Solar was about 10 years +

Our old hot water system was an electric off peak.

From my personal experience stay away from a heat pump system. Got the Rheem 310 ltr model just over 12 months ago and compressor is no longer working, luckily it has a booster element working on J tarrif otherwise we would have no hot water.

To get a techniton out to have a look its $110 for the first 20 min then $40 per 20min after that!!!

To top it off the warranty is split into 3 parts, 1yr for electronic parts, 3 for compressor and 5 for tank. So if its the electronics Im up for a big bill!

Also, if you have neibours close by your home (especially bedrooms) forget about this option. The noice is shocking! Luckily I have an old woman living next to me with bad hearing.

I wish I had gone with an instantaneous gas system....

Do a search around the web, there are plenty of other horror stories.

carioca writes...

But wouldn't one normally put a heat pump in the ground, obviating all noise repercussions?

You could but it'd be HEAPS dearer. To avoid refrigerant leak issues it's best not to pipe the evaporator section directly underground. That means you'd need to have a second heat exchanger and a glycol and pump system for the ground heat pickup. Use about the same amount of power and have a stable heat source so efficiency would be similar but the install cost would probably tack 3k onto the bill.

lyno writes...

To top it off the warranty is split into 3 parts, 1yr for electronic parts, 3 for compressor and 5 for tank. So if its the electronics Im up for a big bill!

Even worse bill if the compressor fails outside warranty. Probably 1k or more. That said compressors rarely fail on good factory built systems. It's only when you have inherent design faults or poor installation or service that things wear out. It's something worth factoring in to the running costs though.

Have you got a hot water heatpump? seems to be the hot topic lately with all the rebates you can get, so I wanted to share some advice which was passed on to me by a veteran HWS installer and consultant. His Quotes "Stay away from Rh..m" he went on to say "we are ripping 2 year old heat pumps out and replacing them" and "we wouldn't even give them to a charity they are so bad"

He also advised that he has recently reviewed heatpumps and solar Hot Water systems for a major electricity company who paid him for his expertise. They were not entirely happy when he put Rh..m as the worst performing heat pump as they have a current working relationship with Rh..m. His recommendations are as follows – For Heatpumps – Steibel Eltron and for Solar HWS – Rinnai with stainless steel tank and copper collectors. By the way, I am a sparky and work for the major electricity company he did the work for.

Observation – heatpumps need to have electricity supplied to them during the day to get the best performance from them (warmer air temps) which means if you install a heatpump you will have to get your electricity network provider to change your off-peak "night tariff" to an off-peak "night and day" tariff which can be up to 30% dearer than the night tariff. But as the heatpump (if it's a good one) uses 70-75% less electricity you should still be better off finanacially and feel a bit greener as well.
I have also heard that they are a bit noisy. I have emailed Steibel Eltron for the decibel rating of the unit I am about to install and noticed they have an option to fit baffles for further sound reduction. Anyway I hope this is helpful and stops someone from making an expensive mistake.

Stiebel Eltron got back to me and the rating on noise is 50db. About the same as a modern dishwasher when operating.

I plan to replace my standard electric hot water service with a heat pump HWS. I am interested in the Siddons Solar Stream. I would like to know how much a heat pump HWS would cost over its lifetime, in terms of maintenance and upkeep. I am a bit concerned about replacing my simple HWS with something as complex as a heat pump unit.

My existing electric HWS is a 250l unit, with a 3.2 kw element, and is about 3 years old. Although it chews through power, it has no moving parts to wear out. I expect it would last another 7 years before it needed to be replaced. The last two replacements that I have bought cost me about $600 each, and because I was just changing new for old, it was simple enough for me to install them.

Most heat pump systems seem to offer about 10 years warranty on the tank, and about 4 years on the compressor. The manufacturer of the unit that I like says "It's life span will be similar to normal airconditioners of around 6-7 years before any major maintenance is required." Is this right? How much does it cost to change over a compressor? Does $2000 sound reasonable? What I know about refrigeration mechanics could be written on the head of a pin, so I would need to pay someone to service the heat pump.

My point is: am I really saving anything by converting from the simple but power hungry traditional electric HWS to the complex and costly heat pump unit, even if it is three times more energy efficient? How much greenhouse gas is emmitted in the construction and serviceing of a heat pump unit compared with the old electric HWS? Must be tonnes more.

Sorry, I seem to have written a book. Got a bit carried away. But, do you see what I mean?

tarbaby writes...

The manufacturer of the unit that I like says "It's life span will be similar to normal airconditioners of around 6-7 years before any major maintenance is required." Is this right?

As I said above the amount of service is dependant on the quality of parts used and or system design. The most likely service item to fail on a good design would be the evaporator fan motor which could vary in price depending on brand used. I've got no idea what motors are used but they can be anything from $150 to $400 plus labour and seven years is a good average. Crap brands won't last that long, good brands will do 20 but it's rare. That average is conservative for compressors. Like a fridge they should last a long time if properly designed and maintained.

How much does it cost to change over a compressor? Does $2000 sound reasonable? What I know about refrigeration mechanics could be written on the head of a pin, so I would need to pay someone to service the heat pump.

A compressor would be around $1500 at a guess. Could be $300 either side of that but most likely cheaper. Again I don't know what size compressors or brands they run. Some brands can be inordinately expensive as an aftermarket part, As for service they really shouldn't need any except cleaning the evaporator coils to remove dust and making sure the evaporator fan bearings sound ok. There's not a lot to them.

My point is: am I really saving anything by converting from the simple but power hungry traditional electric HWS to the complex and costly heat pump unit, even if it is three times more energy efficient? How much greenhouse gas is emmitted in the construction and serviceing of a heat pump unit compared with the old electric HWS? Must be tonnes more.

Would be a bit more in embodied energy, a system with a long life would pay itself back. Seeing jd9degree's post there'd be those that didn't though. The greenhouse gas contribution should be lower as well if you average it on a decent life. Can't say I've seen studies done on it though.

So for heat pumps which brands are good then? From what I can read Dux and Rheem are bad. Which ones should we be looking at???

Ive got a Quantum upright, 240 litre model.
Very good, saves me around 5 KWH a day.
Put it in the garage so it uses waste heat from the car when I put the car away.

I am going with a recommendation from an installer that has seen some bad ones out there. Stiebel Eltron WWK300A. 300 litre. The brand has been around for years but has taken a low profile besides Rh..m and D.x. Made in Germany. My employer sells hot water systems and has just taken on Stiebel Eltron as there prefferred system due to the ongoing problems with their old partner.

would it be worthwhile upgrading to a solar or heat pump HWS with the current rebates, if our stock HWS has probably 2 years left on it?

These new heat pump hot water systems are being heavily subsidized by govt for the time being. A new or replacement installation will cost about $3900 all up but you will only need to pay about $300/400 with the subsidy. Solar is a better option but there are so many houses that cant use it because because their roofs are shaded by trees and council wont let them be cut down. A new convential hot water system will cost about 1400/17oo installed. No subsidy. When the new heat pump units start to fail in 5 to 7 years time owners will then be up for the full $4/5000 replacement cost. Also these heat pumps are more efficient in day time when peak load is often the case. It seems to me that the overall benefit of an OP heater from a cost and environmental position (given the loading on power stations) is still the logical option.

tarbaby writes...

I plan to replace my standard electric hot water service with a heat pump HWS. I am interested in the Siddons Solar Stream.

Yes. I'm interested in this one as well. I like the stainless steel tank (ten year warranty ), and the split condenser unit ( Hitachi ). Costs more than crap Rheem brands etc, but sounds like it may last a long time. Does anyone know if this brand is recommended ? Cheers.

Why are all Heat Pump Hot water Heaters going to fail in 5 – 7 years time, and even if they do why will the owners be up for the full replacement cost?
What exactly fails in them?

The compressor and in some case as in any tank the tank fails. The heat pump I am told is about $2800. The tanks are about $1500. The government wont be subsidizing replacements. They will only subsidize if you are changing from an OP system

jd9degree writes...

I have emailed Steibel Eltron for the decibel rating of the unit I am about to install and noticed they have an option to fit baffles for further sound reduction. Anyway I hope this is helpful and stops someone from making an expensive mistake.

I appreciate the post – thanks :-)

My Dux conventional hot water system has sprung a leak (got a 10 year warranty – it lasted 9) – it's still under warranty but because the government rebate will only pay out on a whole new system, I can't buy the solar/heat pump component only and bolt it into a new replacement tank.
That sucks IMO

I understand that the government doesn't want people to bolt new solar systems onto old tanks, but in my case it would be new tank (warranty replacement) and new solar – alas, the government was too stupid to think of this combination ever occurring so it effectively means I may as well not bother with getting the tank replaced but go for a whole new system :-( So much for the warranty eh. Lucky Dux in this case.

My only gripe is that it seems 300L or maybe 320L is the maximum you can get. I have a 400L tank now, I really don't want to drop back in capacity – I have 3 adults and 4 children to cater for, so 300L doesn't seem a lot to me.

I don't want to go solar hot water on the roof because I'd rather save the roof space (north facing but small in area) for when 1.5kw systems become the sweet spot and go solar for my electricity. My roof area will not take both systems.

I appreciate the info. on STIEBEL ELTRON. My other brand choice would be the siddons solarstream but I'd like to hear more people's feedback on these brands.

I also have a Quantum upright, 240 litre model.

Been in for 4 years, no problems so far.

I certainly save money compared to the normal hot water systems.

I also saw on TV from a Consumer person that any product should operate for a period after the warranty period.

Not break down just after the warranty period.

Hi,

Is there any recommended suppliers/installers in Sydney?

thanks

Maveri writes...

have a 400L tank now, I really don't want to drop back in capacity -

You can still install conventional OP 400 l for under $1500.

LemMotlow writes...

You can still install conventional OP 400 l for under $1500.

Yeah but I want to start saving some money by going solar :-)

My tank is leaking, I can replace it under warranty and just pay for the installation part which will cost about half the price since I will not be paying for the tank again, but since it needs replacing I may as well go solar I think.

Maveri writes...

My tank is leaking, I can replace it under warranty and just pay for the installation part which will cost about half the price since I will not be paying for the tank again, but since it needs replacing I may as well go solar I think.

Why not get the tank replaced but not installed and sell the fixed HWS to subsidise the solar?

i have been mulling this over for a while

the Rheen guy came to look at my current system today to write a quote for a heat pump
my neighbours at the back had one installed last week and i have not been able to catch it running to hear what it sounds like.
they have it installed on what has to be the wall of at least one bedroom to their neighbours on one side.

mine would go in about 10 metres from these (the new heat pump ) neighbours main bedroom.
and about another few metres from another neighbours main bedroom

i see all the negatives about rheem here and other reviews elsewhere....but the concept appeals to me .
solar wont work for me as i have inadequate north facing roof space

my current rheem is now 10 years old and ok but i dont believe that i can get too much more service out of it given my past experience of them .

whoever the guy who came today was...........terse would be the only description.
not one word of info.
*up to you* where i place it in an attempt to mitigate noise.
there are two spots the thing can go. one is more convenient to me and i thought it might be marginally quieter

seems to me that with the postage to me of the regulations on noise that rheem sent out last week, that they are distancing themselvs from decisions made by consumers

or something

i dont know what to do :-(

oldtimewoman writes...

ine would go in about 10 metres from these (the new heat pump ) neighbours main bedroom.
Noise should not be a worry these heaters are much more efficient in the daytime as heat exchangers so thats when it will run most. Your noise wont be annoy anyone and you will be able to consume electricity during the peak rate times now and even more so when a new metering is fitted to your premises. When you are due to replace it in 7-10 years you will b e able to fork out the $4/5000 for a new system.

LemMotlow writes...

will be able to consume electricity during the peak rate times now and even more so when a new metering is fitted to your premises

i dont want to use peak rates

energy australia told me i have to run on the more expensive of the two off peak rates available to me.
ie i will run day and night at *off peak 2* which is not quite double the price of the rate i pay for my night time heating on the cheaper off peak plan

the maths of all this, taking into account the lower power consumption of the heat pump ........is quite beyond me LOL

the reasons i am looking at this pump is that i see it as marginally more environmentally friendly, the price is very subsidised .
the negatives are all the terrible reviews i have read online and my inability to work out the math.
if i buy one now i save the cost of a new ordinary heater....say $1000 plus.
i have plumbing costs either way as the next heate goes out side anyway.

i wish i wasnt reading so much adverse to it and could get to hear my neighbours one working.

will go and sneak up on it now :-)

do they heat as the water is used in the day???
or do they wait for some predetermined time?

new metering..........i know nothing

think i need to talk to rheem somehow

Unless you also install a timer they will heat when the water temperature needs topping up. I am not sure about tnak size but they are possibly smaller than that with the old OP systems and so you may demand power more often. You will in time get a new smart meter installed that will determine what tariff rate you are on dynamically. If you are keen on the environment part you would be wise to consider solar with boosting depending on where you live. Despite all the publicity I tend to believe gallon for gallon you will end up paying more for any of the newer methods than the old and that includes gas.

ummmmmm
i called rheem and grow more confused about the type of power to have and the installation of timers.
they speak in different tongues to energy australia

i am going to speak to siddons anyway.
it is stupid to send a man to quote me who dosnt speak but maybe 6 sentances.

i usually get my head around electric stuffs ......but something is not happening here for me

:-)

from their site....it talks about silent operation

"The heat pump can also be used in cooler climates. With its unique freeze mode, at temperatures below 5°C the water heater switches to electric booster element heating. This ensures plenty of hot water will be available regardless of the weather. In this mode, the unit will operate silently. The product even has a limp mode that will guarantee hot water, even if the heat pump module were to fail."

oldtimewoman writes...

the Rheen guy came to look at my current system today to write a quote for a heat pump

How much did they quote you for the installation?

jd9degree writes...

am going with a recommendation from an installer that has seen some bad ones out there. Stiebel Eltron WWK300A. 300 litre.

How much will you be out of pocket for the installation?

ca6leguy writes...

How much did they quote you for the installation?

this has not been told to me yet

it seems i got energy australia to arrange it so i have to wait for the quote to filter down.
i had forgotten that bit LOL

jd9degree writes...

am going with a recommendation from an installer that has seen some bad ones out there. Stiebel Eltron WWK300A. 300 litre

just had a bit of a read about that one.
i would be interested to hear of how yours goes.
there is a model that can be installed inside too.

worth exploring i think

ooook
i managed to hear the neighbours rheem working finally

if i was to put one where i reckon is the best place for me..........i think i can make it ok if the neighbours were to complain.
some sort of insulated wall would be the worst expensive thing i can think would happen to block the noise going directly to them.'
it is not as loud as my air con or the air cons of any of my neighbours so that is hopeful

Is there ongoing servicing costs for the Heat Pump HWS?

oldtimewoman writes...

i managed to hear the neighbours rheem working finally

What does it sound like? Fridge?

GLO writes...

Is there ongoing servicing costs for the Heat Pump HWS?

yes.possibly similar to an aircon and there were elaborations earlier on with regard to compressors etc.

ca6leguy writes...

What does it sound like? Fridge?

actually i went back today and had another listen.
what i hadnt recalled last night in the dark was that there air con motor is right beside the heat pump adn i thought that maybe i had heard the air con .

it seems i am hearing the heat pump and ...........it is louder than the fridge for sure.
less than the air con.
it is in that narrow valley formed by two houses close together where sound bounces.
mine would be much more in the open.
which i would hope would be less noisy

the part that is the issue is that rheem have sent me a photocopy thing that states the law regarding noise from these pumps when they operate at night and cause noise in a habitable rooom.
the rating of these machines appears to be around 52 Db which is not really high.

it worries me tho as i am in a very built up area with every block subdivided into 2-3 new homes so that neighbours can be very close

rheem told me that i had to get a meter to make the machine run only in the day.
which ramps up the cost enormously.
at our off peak 2 rate it is marginal to be effective running wise i think.
to go to peak costs.............ummmmm, not so much effective.

but my neighbours might not be worried, i might be able to put in some barrier.
i really dont know and i am not paying an acoustic expert to come and tell me LOL

I just visited a local Hot Water specialist and their 'food for thought' was that the difference between heat pumps and solar panels with tank on ground options was that the Heat Pump systems are unlikely to be available in 5-10years as they will be phased out altogether, and the only replacement at that point is likely to be 'solar hot water'

They sell and install both, and the end cost difference was approx $1000 between the heatpump system, versus the Solar panels with tank on ground option. With the later offering greater longevity and essentially no ongoing service costs (unlike heatpump with possible electrical repairs)

Im decidely torn between the 2 options as $1000 has benefits ie larger tank, marginally better efficiency etc, but $1000 is alot to outlay in the middle of the GFC.

Separately, they were promoting the Ecosmart range, citing that
Ecosmart use dual layer insulation compared to Dux single layer.

GLO writes...

I just visited a local Hot Water specialist and their 'food for thought' was that the difference between heat pumps and solar panels with tank on ground options was that the Heat Pump systems are unlikely to be available in 5-10years as they will be phased out altogether, and the only replacement at that point is likely to be 'solar hot water'

did they say why they would be phased out?
places like eupope dont have the sunlight to allow for solar and my roof would not make it a good choice i am sure, with its lack or northern aspect.
the grot and dirt that would gather on my panels ......dont worry about some treees of monster leaf dropping variety...... just make solar not a wonderful thing for me i suspect

anyone going for the insulation package??
am waiting for a call back on that one too

they said that it was likely to be phased out because Australia is going to be all solar hot water. Apparently these were only introduced to fill the gap between the cost of a regular hot water tank and proper solar hot water.

Admittedly, that cost factor is what got me interested.

edit: i believe that you can only have the roof insulation or Solar energy (upto $8000 rebate) not both. Fortunately the hotwater is separate.

GLO writes...

they said that it was likely to be phased out because Australia is going to be all solar hot water. Apparently these were only introduced to fill the gap between the cost of a regular hot water tank and proper solar hot water.

Admittedly, that cost factor is what got me interested.

edit: i believe that you can only have the roof insulation or Solar energy (upto $8000 rebate) not both. Fortunately the hotwater is separate.

sounds odd to me really.
it would make an effective choice of solar or regular.
i cant see tho why people wouldnt import them or make them if there was a market for heat pump

i am waiting to talk to the rebate people as it reads to me that is it solar or insulation but that the heat pump is seperate.
i truly cant be bothered to read anymore about it so am waiting for a human to interpret for me LOL

oldtimewoman writes...

it would make an effective choice of solar or regula

Go for gas grannie! ;)

I dont think there is or will be any move to get rid of heat pumps. I work in the industry and havent heard anything about that – quite the contrary.

I believe there was a miscommunication. When they say "go all solar" they mean either direct or indirect solar. Heat pumps are indirect solar. This is why they are eligible for, e.g. the federal solar hot water rebate, and the renewed energy credits.

Heat pumps require very low amounts of electricity year-round, while correctly installed direct solar thermosiphon systems only use electricity in the winter, but when you average it out year-round a good solar installation is going to draw only a little less electricity. Put that same system on the wrong roof, at the wrong elevation, etc. and the heat pump will have a considerable advantage.

Direct solar may be a better long-term solution in most cases, but not all. If your roof is too far off north, too flat or too steep, shaded by trees that cannot easily be removed, etc. then a heat pump can easily be a better option.

LemMotlow writes...

Go for gas grannie! ;)

been there adn done the gas as a younger variant of myself :-)
cant get it on this place AFAIK and really dont care

(and no i am not a granny and i will pay good money for a bride for my descendant so i might get to be one !!!)

i have spoken to nice man Thomas who belongs to the Steibel eltron heat pumps.
very helpful
told me that it is not true that heat pumps are being phased out.
however he believes that off peak will be.....but to check the guvvermint web site.
said that south australia had phased them out

anyway........... he is getting the people who do their instals.....
"easy being green" ......to call me and quotes a figure i can live with for a cross over....without major plumbing or electric work.
i will re examine the garage as a potential place to put a tank too .
there is little space to spare but it might be possible.

so i am intrigued by this company and the german technology.

sure is easier to deal with than rheem and energy australia

dont know anything about this instal company.
does anyone else ??

http://www.easybeinggreen.com.au/site/

ETA...........

okkkkkkk
i have spoken to easy being green and they willl get their installers to quote me for extra work in probably moving any new machine i buy

$4000 upfront and $3600 rebates.
that is for a system placed in the same place as the current heater with no extra work.
inside or outside

Anyone care to comment of the lifespan of heatpumps versus solar panels with ground mounted tanks?

oldtimewoman writes...

it worries me tho as i am in a very built up area with every block subdivided into 2-3 new homes so that neighbours can be very close

With that, I'm thinking it's better to go ol' skool, the good old electric water heater, also keeping in mind the maintenance cost of the heat pump. Instead of saving you money, you may have to fork out even more and you also have angry neighbours.

ca6leguy writes...

With that, I'm thinking it's better to go ol' skool, the good old electric water heater, also keeping in mind the maintenance cost of the heat pump. Instead of saving you money, you may have to fork out even more and you also have angry neighbours.

the German model has baffles that can be retrofitted if needs be... and is stated to cut noise by 50%

there is probably really only one neighbour who would be affected and they own the new Rheem :-)
that MUST be heard in the house of their neighbours closest.
i am not sure how *delicate* the next closest neighbours are.

the air con of the nearest to me neighbour on the other side is quite noisy in my bedroom.....and way exceeds what i am hearing from the rheem when i walk up there to check.
but it all depends on who complains about who about what.
which can be unknown

i will just check it out.
my heater is ok but has to have its days numbered.

i wont be rushing into anything and the maintenance is an issue to be factored into any figures that are projected

the only reviews i have read are about the rheem and they are overwhelming negative

oldtimewoman writes...

i wont be rushing into anything and the maintenance is an issue to be factored into any figures that are projected

I've been quoted $650 to have a Dux 250L heat pump water heater fully installed after rebate. Not sure if that's the standard price. Heard that some company is doing the Rheem 325L for only $300. But thinking about the maintenance cost, at the end it's going to be even more expensive than an electric.

ca6leguy writes...

I've been quoted $650 to have a Dux 250L heat pump water heater fully installed after rebate. Not sure if that's the standard price. Heard that some company is doing the Rheem 325L for only $300. But thinking about the maintenance cost, at the end it's going to be even more expensive than an electric.

like i said my quote for replacement only is $400.
if i go ahead it will cost me more as i will move the unit from one place inside to a new place outside......most likely, but not necessarily
will talk with them as the unit is larger than my current one and has set requirements for an indoor room size which i probably cant meet in the present location.
my neighbours Rheem went in for i believe they told me $200 (but there is sometimes a language thing there and i miss somehing)

the only thing i have found so far on maintence is the NZ distributors info
http://www.parex.co.nz/img/wwk300_a_heat%20pump_product_overview_15.01.08.pdf

http://www.parex.co.nz/img/wwk300_nz_instruction_manual_aug08.pdf

what else could there be????

I recently had installed one of those new Rheen outdoor heatpump Hot Water Services. The type that are currently sponsored by both Federal and State Governments, which work off offpeak 2 power.
Mine is in its heat cycle late at night till 11.30am, and the noise of the fan is quite audible, no doubt irritating the neigbours next door.
I want to look at installing in the power circuit to the HWS an inline outdoor timer, so that I can turn off the power to the unit automatically at say 10.30pm.

For a start, shouldn't offpeak2 power supply cease around 10.00pm?
Is it feasible to install a timer?
Does the timer need to be a 15amp model?
If it can be done, do any of you knowledgable guys out there know an appropriate style and brand, and where I could purchase one from.
I would ask my electrician who originally installed the HWS, but he is now no longer available.

oldtimewoman writes...

like i said my quote for replacement only is $400.

Wonder why German made ones are cheaper than Dux which is Australian made. Do you know which model? Is it the WWK300A?

smolioli writes...

(have an electric boosted Apricus evacuated tube system)

What size and how many tubes do you have ?
I was looking at either a Hills or Apricus 250L unit, not sure if 22 tubes are enough or should I go with the Hills unit which also comes with 30.
Another option I looked at would be to install the Apricus 22 tube kit to my 2 yo 160L Rheem electric but I don't think they have a rebate on kits so its probably cheaper to replace the whole lot.

ca6leguy writes...

Wonder why German made ones are cheaper than Dux which is Australian made. Do you know which model? Is it the WWK300A?

i believe that is the model

iwill know for sure after i get a firm quote

havnt looked at Dux as yet

In terms of heat pumps, where is it best to have them located?

In the shade or in direct sunlight? or doesn't it matter?

Where I would like to place a unit would be where my existing hot water service is – down the shaded side of the house – I'm just wondering if there is a preferred place to locate a heat pump unit as far as thermal properties are concerned...

:-)

Just got a quote for the Stiebel WWK300a in Brisbane. $3970 for the unit – $1100 if you want to sell them your RECs.

I was quoted 3.6k for the Dux system, so it's worth spending the extra $400.

Im sick of having cold showers..

Anyone know of any qualified and reputable companies that can service/fix Rheem heat pump hot water systems under warranty? Trying to find someone other than Rheem as they seem very expensive.

Thx

lyno writes...

Anyone know of any qualified and reputable companies that can service/fix Rheem heat pump hot water systems under warranty? Trying to find someone other than Rheem as they seem very expensive.

Do you mean 'not' under warranty? Surly under warranty would mean they cover the cost?

h4l writes...

$1100 if you want to sell them your RECs.

Why don't you want to sell your RECs?

Maveri writes...

Do you mean 'not' under warranty? Surly under warranty would mean they cover the cost?

Depends on whats wrong with the system, since its over a year old electronics are not covered but the compressor and tank are. If its the compressor thats the problem then I can claim the warranty.

Gone the Dux 250 heat pump and to me ive been suckered in at this stage.
I had a 250 litre offpeakhot water system before that i could get 250l of hot thru the day no probs except between 5pm and 11pm.
I have a 190 litre spa bath tha i could use and still have enough hot water if done earliear.
NOW I GET ½ to 2/3rds of a spa bath cause it runs out of hot water.
Had dux warranty out to the best answer was that the old offpeaks had a thermo below which 70 degrees C and top of tank would get higher in temp as heat rises,and heatpump only pushs 60 degress only at disharge thats it so you need more of the heatpump hotwater to have a spa.
End result is a 250l heatpump is not equivalent to a 250l offpeak except for capacaity of water tank and not temp.
Now lets get into the facts ???
What is hot water??? is it 50,51,69,87,100,44 degrees celcious.
Can some one follow up with there experience of heat pump units.
If i think it out i paid $3800 installed to the rebates i got $3600,so it cost me $200 to install.
A 250 litre hotwater system was going to cosy me $1250 to replace.
So if I do the math and buy a thermostat and heater fo $200 and change it back over i will save $600-$900 that the govt wasted and ill be able to keep the window open at night ,not frustrate the neighbours with the noise also,and can have a spa bath aswell and not run out of hot water.
250l to 250l are not measured equally in degrees output capacitity and thats what they dont want you to know.

There has been no thought about this system or how its implementeded
Im so frustrated that these mugs selling us these systems on power savings on hot water that now i can save1 to 2 thirds of my hot water bill by changing to a heat pump unit .
I now save more than those dills and save 100% of my hot water is by keeping it turned of at the meterbox

pb006 writes...

one the Dux 250 heat pump

Get your OLP OP system back and make a positive contrubution to the environmnent by using all that power thats generated throughout the night. Its still gonna be produced even when ½ the metro area has all gone over to heat pumps.
Its gonna be interesting 7 years form now when these $350 heat pumps need to be replaced bu their owners for a non subsidised price of $4000!

ca6leguy writes...
Wonder why German made ones are cheaper than Dux which is Australian made. Do you know which model? Is it the WWK300A?

i believe that is the model

iwill know for sure after i get a firm quote

havnt looked at Dux as yet

---------------------------------
Hi,
Have anyone install the Stiebel Eltron WWK300A ?
Good ? Bad ? Average ?
I received quite from EasyBeingGreen' for $399 installed on the WWK300A
Thanks for your feed back.

Maveri writes...

In terms of heat pumps, where is it best to have them located?

In the shade or in direct sunlight? or doesn't it matter?

Anyone know?

Maveri writes...

In terms of heat pumps, where is it best to have them located?

In the shade or in direct sunlight? or doesn't it matter?

It doesnt matter

The heat pump works on ambient air temperature not sunlight therefore if its in the shade or sun it wont matter. There my be some benefit to having it in direct sunlight but it wouldnt be huge.

Thats one of the benefits of the heat pump system, it can be run day or night, obviously at night it needs to work a little harder since the ambient temp is lower but you get the benefit of J tariff electricity.

Id be more concerned with placement in regards to neighbours and noise, for example the Rheem that I have creates 50db or noise at 1m distance which is equivalent to a vacuum cleaner. Keep it away from areas of your house where you like quiet (in particular, bedrooms if you intend to run it at night) and be especially considerate of nextdoor neighbours as its the easiest way to p*ss them off.

lyno writes...

It doesnt matter

The heat pump works on ambient air temperature not sunlight therefore if its in the shade or sun it wont matter. There my be some benefit to having it in direct sunlight but it wouldnt be huge.

It's just that I have two location I could put it

One is in place of my existing dying hot water service – it's down the side of the house in a shaded spot that get's a cool breeze running along it.

The other is just around the corner (within 3m of the first location), in direct sunlight, with no/very little air flow, so the air temperature there is much warmer as it also get's reflected heat off the bricks. I had heard the unit are best kept away from air-flow but I wasn't sure if that advise was sound.

I was thinking that if it uses the heat from the air temperature, then the second spot would be the best to locate it as the air temp. is certainly higher there.

So, do the heat pumps draw out the heat from the surrounding air to heat the coolant and transfer it to the water or is it the other way around? I was not sure (got a bit confused with air con).

In either location, it would be in very close proximity to my air conditioner.

lyno writes...

Id be more concerned with placement in regards to neighbours and noise, for example the Rheem that I have creates 50db or noise at 1m distance which is equivalent to a vacuum cleaner. Keep it away from areas of your house where you like quiet (in particular, bedrooms if you intend to run it at night) and be especially considerate of nextdoor neighbours as its the easiest way to p*ss them off.

The neighbors have also installed their air con unit along this side of the house so they really can't complain about any noise :-)

Maveri writes...

I had heard the unit are best kept away from air-flow but I wasn't sure if that advise was sound.

Ive never heard that too much air flow is and issue, I do know that it cant be installed in confined spaces though as it needs to circulate the air through the unit to draw the heat out.

So, do the heat pumps draw out the heat from the surrounding air to heat the coolant and transfer it to the water or is it the other way around? I was not sure (got a bit confused with air con).

Your correct, its air to coolant to water (reverse of a fridge unit).

Maveri writes...

So, do the heat pumps draw out the heat from the surrounding air to heat the coolant and transfer it to the water

Yes.

I was thinking that if it uses the heat from the air temperature, then the second spot would be the best to locate it as the air temp. is certainly higher there.

In that case it might be the better spot, but I doubt it would make very much difference.

Which spot is closer to where you use the most of your hot water? That would be a more important factor.

Well I should get my Siddons solarstream split heat pump system next week. I cant understand why people are getting crappy rheem heat pumps, when you can get quality Australian made units such as the siddons. They have been in business for many years, and have the most efficient heat pump hot water system currently available ( offpeak operation is recommended ). The tank is stainless steel, and the seperate heat pump makes maintenance/replacement a lot easier.

http://www.siddonssolarstream.com/

The 327 litre tank retails for $4200, after rebates and straightforward installation ( yes, I've got a cheap plumber mate ), I should be out of pocket about $1000, which is not bad for a top quality system. Will give feedback when installed

I have been told by an air conditioner installer I know quite well, that it is best not to install an air conditioner compressor on the western or northern side of your house if possible, as the direct sunlight and ensuing heat can make them less efficient for cooling. I would assume the opposite would apply for a hot water heat pump.

I haven't really looked into them, when my off peak electric HWS goes, I'll be replacing it with solar as I have a lot of roof space.

Had the Stiebel put in 4 weeks ago. Running nicely in my garage. Location was the biggest issue for me as the tank is under a spare bedroom. The tank was a bit noisy at first but now not so much as I think it is "run in" if you know what I mean. The temp in my garage drops to 15degrees overnight so when the off-peak kicks in at 11pm the tank runs and depending on our daily usage of hot water it might run for 3 hours or more. Once it ran for 6 hours. If you installed externally where the ambient temp is lower overnight you might have to get off-peak extended hours so it can run during the day. Also if you have teenagers you will definately need extended hours. If you install outside consider the neighbours. I am getting a baffle from stieble eltron Aust($150) to quieten mine down even more in case we have someone in the spare bedroom. A number of other people have stopped them running during the night by using a timeswitch relay in the switchboard. This way they only run in the warmer hours of the day and should be more efficient. I am a tightass so am trying to get away with mine on Off-Peak night tariff only. When the family grows up I might have to change.

hmmmm – I'm still thinking thinking thinking.

I have to do something fairly quick – the hot water tank is now leaking more :-(

all I am doing is watering the ground now – ahhh

Jangle writes...

Which spot is closer to where you use the most of your hot water? That would be a more important factor.

The cool spot is in place of the existing cylinder, so plumbing should be a no brainer

If I put it in the warmer spot, the distance is about 3m away (basically just around the corner).

pb006 writes...

End result is a 250l heatpump is not equivalent to a 250l offpeak except for capacaity of water tank and not temp.

This aspect concerns me greatly.

I have a 400L tank now because I have 3 adults and 4 kids to provide hot water for.

The largest unit I can find is 300L (except for Rheem which is 325L but I don't want to touch rheem).

My 4 kids will turn into 4 teenagers at some point in time – last thing I want is to be running out of hot water.

Anyone installed larger units or know about larger capacity units.

I'm beginning to think I might junk the whole idea of solar hot water and just go solar and use that to power a large conventional style tank with a capacity like what I currently have :-( I'd prefer not to though.

I have flicked an email to easybeinggreen and Stiebel but have not got a reply yet.

Anyone know what options are available for a large tank capacity in regards to solar?

If these units are lasting only 8 – 10 years anyhow – maybe it's an option to go cheaper and just replace the whole dam system in 8 – 10 years with newer technology stuff then?

Maveri writes...

I have a 400L tank now because I have 3 adults and 4 kids to provide hot water for.

Forget about a heat pump system then, most units cater from 3-5 people and maybe 6.

If you have access to gas I would be going instantaneous hot water. No need for a tank with endless hot water on demand and no wastage with heating water that isnt needed. Cost works out to about the same even when factoring in the rebates.

When I renovate ill be changing to instantaneous hot water as my experience with a heat pump system has been less than satisfactory.

lyno writes...

Forget about a heat pump system then, most units cater from 3-5 people and maybe 6.

oh no – that's not what I wanted to hear :-(

If you have access to gas I would be going instantaneous hot water. No need for a tank with endless hot water on demand and no wastage with heating water that isnt needed. Cost works out to about the same even when factoring in the rebates.

I would kill for gas.

Alas, when we called up the gas company and asked them about coming down our street I didn't get a too favorable response. As they were talking to me, they said if I got a certain percentage of people in the street bla bla bla. Then when they entered my details on the computer and hit return, the 'advice' suddenly became "Oh – I'm sorry – but even if you got 100% of the people to sign up we would not come down your street – your in an area that we will never supply – it's simply too costly". I unfortunately live in an area with LOTS of rock – so gas is not an option.

When I renovate ill be changing to instantaneous hot water as my experience with a heat pump system has been less than satisfactory.

Dam – I'm feeling hemmed in now

I still have not heard from the heat pump companies as to what they can do in terms of larger units – I suspect I have been placed in the 'too hard' basket :-(

Maveri writes...

If these units are lasting only 8 – 10 years anyhow – maybe it's an option to go cheaper and just replace the whole dam system in 8 – 10 years with newer technology stuff then?

If you read the previous page, I made reference to the Siddons Solarstream heat pump unit, which has a stainless steel tank which should last 20+ years, and a split compressor unit, which likewise should be easy to service/replace if needed. Have a look. P.S. they have a 327 litre tank.

Maveri writes...

I'm beginning to think I might junk the whole idea of solar hot water and just go solar and use that to power a large conventional style tank with a capacity like what I currently have :-( I'd prefer not to though.

I assume you'd prefer not to because of the cost?

We recently installed a solar system – Evacuated tubes type – it's awesome. Even down here in southern Vic in winter – I'm amazed how well it works.

Jangle writes...

We recently installed a solar system – Evacuated tubes type – it's awesome. Even down here in southern Vic in winter – I'm amazed how well it works.

Which one did you put in? I'm looking at one for my home, leaning towards the Hills product but am open to suggestions.

SirLanceAfew writes...

If you read the previous page, I made reference to the Siddons Solarstream heat pump unit, which has a stainless steel tank which should last 20+ years, and a split compressor unit, which likewise should be easy to service/replace if needed. Have a look. P.S. they have a 327 litre tank.

Yes, the Siddons ones look good – I especially like the stainless steel tank.

It's the compressor part that would wear out sooner I think. I was more referring to this part as being the weak spot in a heat pump system.

I just got an answer back from 'itseasybeinggreen' and they have another unit that has an additional element that they claim can supply 500L at 40 degs and is suitable for 6 – 8 people. hmmmm – it's still in a 300L tank mind you :-(

Siddons
Stainless steel tank (10 year warranty)
-5 -> 45 deg operating range
2.5 amps
Single unit
Doesn't dump water if overheats
No need for sacrificial anode
Electric boost option available

easybeinggreen unit (STIEBEL ELTRON)
Steel enamel tank
0 -> 42 deg operating range
2.3 amps running
Split unit
Does it dump if overheated? I don't know
sacrificial anode
Electric boost option? broucher says it's not required. I think it might be for my sized family :-(

Dam – the split unit aspect may cause me issues (or additional cost). The supplied length for the Siddons is 2m – an extension has to be purchased to move it further.

Decisions decisions decisions – there's no perfect unit is there!

Jangle writes...

I assume you'd prefer not to because of the cost?
(in response to my considering going solar (sun) heating).

No – I don't mind the cost.

I have a small roof (well, the part that faces north) and I was going to save the roof space for solar electric when the prices comes down enough to warrant it.

I'm thinking maybe I'll just forget that idea and look at solar heating as well then and stuff the solar electric – that could be years before we see it really worth it?

I'm happy to pay what-ever it costs to supply hot water – I just don't want to get something that will leave me running out all the time – that's why I opted for a 400L in the first place, even before I had 4 kids.

JKR writes...

Which one did you put in? I'm looking at one for my home, leaning towards the Hills product but am open to suggestions.

The Hills one impresses me the most out of all of them (for a solar solution that is)

I heard they are expensive though.

At the end of the day (or week LOL) one has to ask 'do you really get your money back?'

I'm starting to wonder if after 10 years, you really do recoup all the cost? I assume 'yes' but I do wonder.

What's going to happen in 10 years time when the government has banned all pure electric hot water systems and you can only purchase solar/heat pump types? They are hideously expensive without a rebate.

JKR writes...

Which one did you put in?

I got the AAE system. 30 tubes, 315 litre stainless tank.

Maveri writes...

I'm happy to pay what-ever it costs to supply hot water – I just don't want to get something that will leave me running out all the time – that's why I opted for a 400L in the first place, even before I had 4 kids.

We also have 4 kids, and with this system we can now all have a shower without running out. It's much better than the (same sized) electric system we had before because the water gets hotter and so you're using less of it. I asked about a 400 litre tank but my installer said I wouldn't need it. So far it seems he was right.

Maveri writes...

The Hills one impresses me

I heard they are expensive though.

I was going to get one of these units. Had a plumber come out and look at my home and give it the OK. The solar company I was dealing with would not email me a quote, insisting that I "give them a call". Stuff them, they lost my business, and I'll go the easier to install heat pump.

Maveri writes...

Yes, the Siddons ones look good – I especially like the stainless steel tank.

If i had my time again I would go the the siddons even if it cost me $$ the dux crap i have now is noisy ,doest supply 250l like a 250l hotwater system and is noy surely worth the $3800 tag.
Where is this useless incompetent government on climate change.
I know now cause I have issue with the dux heat pump.
BIG QUESTION: can you rip out the dux crap and install the siddons system and still get the rebates.How long do you have to wait to qualifyfor anoyher system.
I feel i have been sold an inferior system that has ripped me off and also the government.
Has proper tests been done on these ineficient noisy heat pumps,do we have qualified people in fed and state govt testing all options?
my God I have learnt more in 3 weeks than I new before ,Do we have experts in this field out there than tha accurately advise govt ,or is it Rheem and Dux running the climate change on hot water.
The govt pamplets adverts only show rheem and dux heatpumps.WHO HAS THERE FINGER IN THE PIE.
ITS THE UTE OWNER IN QLD I GUESS..

my advice is stay away from heats pump water heaters go the split or roof mounted systems. ive been in the hot water business 17 years running my own company for the last 7. in the past year i have seen hundreds of fly by night companies opening up just to make $$$. they don't know anything about these systems except from the manufactorers who all tell u there product is the best with hundreds of reasons why. we install close to 20-30 heat pumps a week at the moment all brands. and i will keep selling them because thats what people want. if i told someone on the phone these heat pumps are crap the next hot water company gets the job so be wary about advice. basically these systems are best suited to 1-2 people who use little hot water. it takes on average 1 hour to heat 60 – 70 litres in good weather. the reason these systems are attractive is because of the rebate but if i told u 5 years down the track u will be up for 1500 for maintenance then 3-5 years after that a new system which the rebates wont be around costing big $ the big concern is when disposing of a heat pump they need to be decommissioned the refridgerent gas in them is one of the worst gases on the enviroment. this gas needsto be taken to a special disposal place. hence a lot dearer installation second time around. the noise is improving on the newer versions. lets put it like this heat pumps are a bit like cars when the old holden(old system) brakes down most mechanics can fix it cheaply and fast. with new cars and electronics your basically best to take it to manufactorer for service who see u coming.

spudss writes...

basically these systems are best suited to 1-2 people who use little hot water. it takes on average 1 hour to heat 60 – 70 litres in good weather. the reason these systems are attractive is because of the rebate but if i told u 5 years down the track u will be up for 1500 for maintenance then 3-5 years after that a new system which the rebates wont be around costing big $

i am still thinking and i havnt heard back from the installer i was supposed to .......so maybe that is ok too :-)

if it heats at 70 litres an hour, that is say 4-5 hour tops if u use the 3oo litres type of unit. it could heat at night if it dosnt disturb neighbours.
if u need more water for larger families...........they can heat in the day on the more costly off peak time ...but less costly than regular rates.
seems to me that larger families cop it cost wise for water heating anyway so cant often use _ only_ the 11pm-7 am ish sort of hours for heating.

i have spoken to two suppliers and one installer and the message i am getting about maintenance is that it should be minimal.
i am being told........maintenance is much as one would care for an air con unit.
the first thing to go would be a condenser.
looking at the siddons stainless tank........that should promise a lot longer wear than those with sacrifical anodes.
??????

i think the whole thing is way far from ideal at the moment.
but not impossible.
i was all set to get the stiebel but got side tracked just now on the siddons.
the advantage of the siddons seems to be that the compressor part of the unit is on the ground and is not actually that large.
therefor might not throw around the sound like the other models do that have the motor at the top

it is all a mystery.
glad my 10 year old rheem is still good :-)

spudss writes...

my advice is stay away from heats pump water heaters go the split or roof mounted systems.

Okay. I've got a couple of friends that have had nothing but problems with their roof mounted/split solar systems, and I've read plenty of problems on various forums with roof mounted systems. I dont doubt there are some crap heat pump systems around at the moment ( why does rheem keep popping up ? I know, because you get rheemed up the rump if you buy one ). Do you have any experience with a "quality" unit such as the Siddons ? Heat pump technology in itself is nothing new, and quality units dont worry me in the slightest. For example, my split reverse cycle air conditioner has been going solidly for 14 years now, totally maintenance free ( sharp ), and there is no reason why a well made solar heat pump system shouldn't do likewise. The split design of the Siddons and stainless steel tank makes plenty of sense to me. It's getting installed next week, so fingers crossed.

SirLanceAfew writes...

I've got a couple of friends that have had nothing but problems with their roof mounted/split solar systems, and I've read plenty of problems on various forums with roof mounted systems.

What are the problems? The only thing I can think of is that they crack your roof during installation and it leaks when rains.

We had a heat pump system installed a few months back, it cannot maintain the same heat running off peak, so we have it running continually.

Bronx19 writes...

We had a heat pump system installed a few months back, it cannot maintain the same heat running off peak, so we have it running continually.

what sort of pump,how large a tank and how many people????

thanks

ca6leguy writes...

What are the problems? The only thing I can think of is that they crack your roof during installation and it leaks when rains.

/forum-replies.cfm?t=1155612

Have a read here. Some good reports, and some very bad. one workmate has had a Beasley for a few years, and was saying the other day that it has never made enough hot water utilising solar ( booster reliant ). As to why, I dont know the specifics, will find out when I next see him. Another has one ( dont know the brand ) but apparently it dumps its full load of hot water on summer days, apparently as a safety feature, because the water gets too hot and literally boils, wasting heaps of water.

basically these systems are best suited to 1-2 people who use little hot water. it takes on average 1 hour to heat 60 – 70 litres in good weather. the reason these systems are attractive is because of the rebate but if i told u 5 years down the track u will be up for 1500 for maintenance then 3-5 years after that a new system which the rebates wont be around costing big $

VERY GOOG OLDTIMEWOMAN.you are 101% right.

Wong ,garret and receccision rudd you lost me at the next election ,you introduced greenhouse emmissions plan with no thought,I realised something today is that the geens are runnining this country.
will buy another offpeak system before they phase it out.
Next week will go down to the electrical suppliers and purchase 1x3600watt element and a 70degree thermostat.Approx $80,dissconect heat pump and fit element down below on tank and yahoo back to normal

Maveri writes...

hmmmm – I'm still thinking thinking thinking.

I have to do something fairly quick – the hot water tank is now leaking more :-(

I am in the same position.

I was ready to install the Dux 250 lt Heat pump this week but the thing sounds like a bit of a hassle.

The noise part is my main concern. Whats happens if it's installed and the noise is too loud for the neighbours. I cant do that to them – We have really good neighbours.

I noticed a few people have installed the Dux 250 LT – Could you all please update this thread with details.

How is the noise.

Is the saving worth it. Some other forums have mentioned that if the Heat Pumps are connected to Off Peak they dont heat enough water.

ablecross writes...

Maveri writes...

I am in the same position.

I was ready to install the Dux 250 lt Heat pump this week but the thing sounds like a bit of a hassle.

The noise part is my main concern. Whats happens if it's installed and the noise is too loud for the neighbours. I cant do that to them – We have really good neighbours.

I noticed a few people have installed the Dux 250 LT – Could you all please update this thread with details.

How is the noise.

Is the saving worth it. Some other forums have mentioned that if the Heat Pumps are connected to Off Peak they dont heat enough water.

please dont do anythinthing right now .Dux is now doing a check on how much water i receive thru the warranty side of dux.
we have struck gold with dux recently with the amount of h/w the system supliess.
wait please.

ablecross writes...

"]
["I noticed a few people have installed the Dux 250 LT – Could you all please update this thread with details.

How is the noise.

Is the saving worth it. Some other forums have mentioned that if the Heat Pumps are connected to Off Peak they dont heat enough water.

wait charlie brown,Dux realises my issue with a lack of hot hot water at 180 degrees.
give me 72 hrs for reply........

Dux can kiss my bell ,ring etc

pb006 writes...

Dux is now doing a check on how much water i receive thru the warranty side of dux.

I dont understand that sentence !

But you are the man with the Dux – so i will listen.

pboo6

i am sorry
i dont actually understand what you are saying

are u saying that Dux is going to check the amount of hot water you receive.
and are doing it under warranty??

does that mean how much u get from heated tank full to drained out??

or ?????????????

what sort of problems are you having ?

oldtimewoman writes...

pboo6

i am sorry

i dont actually understand what you are saying

are u saying that Dux is going to check the amount of hot water you receive.

and are doing it under warranty??

does that mean how much u get from heated tank full to drained out??

or ?????????????

what sort of problems are you having ?

He said that he does not get the same quantity of hotwater as he did with his conventional HWS. Dux will be checking his installation so as to ascertain why ? Now with reference to striking gold, this may allude to the fact that he is getting something for nothing. Short of proving subtitles to JBs posts this is the best I can offer you :)

NoCashatAll writes...

["He said that he does not get the same quantity of hotwater as he did with his conventional HWS. Dux will be checking his installation so as to ascertain why ? Now with reference to striking gold, this may allude to the fact that he is getting something for nothing. Short of proving subtitles to JBs posts this is the best I can offer you :)

ahhhhh
thank you very much.
the complaint of less *hot* is something i read somewhere in passing before.

i will be interested to see if Dux have any comment

Just installed the Siddons split heat pump system. Have it fired up atm on standard rate electricity just to make sure it works and hear how loud the fan is. Is very quiet really, a lot quieter than the heat pump unit for the split airconditioner. Supposed to take about 3 hours or so to heat the 327 litres of ambient temp water ( bloody cold atm ) to 65 degrees, so we'll see if this claim holds true. Will then wire it back up to off peak and start saving some $$$ hopefully. Refrigerant pipes were a little fiddly to connect between the heat pump and tank, requiring some patience when bending the copper tubes and tight access to screw the couplings, but not too difficult. A high quality looking unit.

oldtimewoman writes...

ahhhhh

thank you very much.

the complaint of less *hot* is something i read somewhere in passing before.

Now you have got me wondering if I provided a correct translation !

A guy from Dux came out to my place today and gave me a quote.

To replace old hot water system with Dux Heat Pump 250 Lt and relocate to outside (which is about a metre to the left of the old Hot Water System) was

$1300.00

Now that maybe, possibly could be an OK quote. But it was all the suspicious things that went with it that worried me.

I have friends who are plumbers and electricians (no i cant get them to do it because it would take until the end of time) and they said a lot of the work was way, way over quoted.

The regulator that reduces your water temp was $200. That should be $60 – $100 at most.

The electrical work was $250. Thats should have been $80 at most.

My biggest complaint was the REC's. The guy had the rebate listed as $450. The rebate for REC's comes to $1024. When we asked him about it he said "That what we have to put" In other words they pocket the remaining $574.

Or, as my plumber frind told me, They keep the REC's because the price fluctuates like shares. And when they go up – They Sell, Sell, Sell.

Anyway – i am still suspicious of the product and now the installers aswell. So i will wait for now.

Question: Are you allowd to buy a normal Hot Water system ? The guy did not confirm but he was indicating that you can only buy Heat Pumps or Solar or some type of efficient heating system now ? ?

ablecross writes...

Question: Are you allowd to buy a normal Hot Water system ? The guy did not confirm but he was indicating that you can only buy Heat Pumps or Solar or some type of efficient heating system now ? ?

Yes you are allowed to buy a Normal hot water system. Vulcan 250 litre $770.00 inc tax

3600 Watt single element

ohhhhhhhh i think i made a mistake herring on this post

who do i tell i didnt mean it ????

sorry -(

NoCashatAll writes...

Now you have got me wondering if I provided a correct translation !

well maybe we will be told

:-)

ablecross writes...

Anyway – i am still suspicious of the product and now the installers aswell. So i will wait for now.

The guy sounds real dodgy. Name and shame him.

Wow. It has been a special Day.

Hot water system no longer leaks.

Also does not provide hot water any more !

I am currently heating water on stove top.

Will be ordering Normal Hot water system tomorrow – Dont give a S##T about cost, RECS or saving the planet.

ablecross writes...

Anyway – i am still suspicious of the product and now the installers aswell. So i will wait for now.

Be very suspicious of this man, and plenty like him at the moment. If you read my other post on this page, I just put in a Siddons 327 litre split heat pump unit today. If you read into it, it's a top quality unit ( stainless tank, and very efficient split heat exchanger ), and all up I am under $900 total out of pocket after rebates/installation. I ordered the system direct from the manufacturer, and had a couple of friends ( sparky and plumber ) help install it, which was straightforward, and they charged me a reasonable price for their time/materials ( $200 plumber for 2 hours, $80 sparky for just over 1 hour ).

I got a quote from a local plumber to supply and install the same system at my place, and with what he quoted, I would have been out of pocket over $1700 for the same thing.

Be warned, there are sharks everywhere presently, preying on peoples lack of knowledge on the rebates, and installation of these systems, which is very straightforward.

PS, the Siddons did in fact heat up 327 litres of very cold tap water to full temp in this cold weather in app. 4 hours. Pretty impressive for 1 kwh power input.

SirLanceAfew writes...

I ordered the system direct from the manufacturer, and had a couple of friends ( sparky and plumber ) help install it

Interesting, if something goes wrong, I wonder who's going to be pointing the finger.

ca6leguy writes...

Interesting, if something goes wrong, I wonder who's going to be pointing the finger.

what was explained to me by an installing company is that the official installer has to be a plumber.......who will sign off on it .
i think that is the requirement for having the rebates processed

ca6leguy writes...

Interesting, if something goes wrong, I wonder who's going to be pointing the finger.

What do you mean ? 10 year warranty on the tank, 4 year on the heat pump. If something goes wrong, I'll be pointing a finger. It's just like having a plumber install a standard system.

NoCashatAll writes...

He said that he does not get the same quantity of hotwater as he did with his conventional HWS. Dux will be checking his installation so as to ascertain why ? Now with reference to striking gold, this may allude to the fact that he is getting something for nothing. Short of proving subtitles to JBs posts this is the best I can offer you :)

Yes Dux warranty has issed a service request for a dump test on the hot water system.
as I have a 190l spa bath thats useless to me now,they will fill up the bath to see how much h/w i get..
Done that twice already when the system was fully heated.
100L max at 60 degrees
To do the math 140 L at 40 degrees in bath.
Also reheat time is about 4 hrs for a shower if wanted,but to reheat whole system is more than 10 hrs.
This will be the 2nd warranty call after the serviceman said last time its normal for heatpumps to be like that and it wont be the same as a 250L standard system.
Stay tuned and Ill let you know the results after they turn up.
Dux has now requested a service twice to no avail the dux rep agent hasnt called.
The first time they rang the same day,now its been several,unusal as the repairer when i rang anomanously could come out anyday to replace a hotwater system ,even same day.
Ill wait a few more days to see...
I have a suspicious feeling that the other replies in this forum are correct (designed for 2 people)

Actually it's 10 years on the tank, 4 on the compressor, 3 years on the heat pump parts and only 1 year on thermostat at p&t valve.

Just to be accurate.

However, it still looks good as a system.

I'm getting mine in 8 weeks.

They can't make them fast enough at the moment!

OK. Siddons is working really well, with ample hot water for our family of 4, heating up fine on these cool winter nights on off peak power, and staying hot for a full 24 hours until the next heating cycle. Thumbs up.

I just got a rheem heat pump. Its the newer one with the compressor on the front and it holds 325l of water. It only runs on off-peak power as it was replacing a old electric hot water service. I have only just got it, so I couldn't tell you how much less power it uses. It does heat up to 70degree's which is really hot as I was used to having my old unit running as cool as possible to try and save money.

The second night I had it, I thought it had stopped working and was getting worried as the water only seemed warm rather than hot. As it turned out, it was only running every second night because we do not use a lot of hot water. It is insulated so well that the water didn't get cool enough for the compressor to turn on again and it would have wait until the next off-peak period to start again. I am very impressed with it so far. As for the noise I can just hear it in the bathroom – the unit is right up against the bathroom wall on a old weather board house. I can hear it outside from about 5 meter's away but it so much quieter than a normal aircon unit.

I was looking at other brands but the local builder who is doing my extension pushed me towards this unit and although I don't have the bill yet ( sometimes it is good that builders are a little slack ) It shouldn't cost me anymore than $1300 dollars including installation.

Hope this helps, sorry if its a little hard to read I have got a really bad cold and I am a little delirious.

spudss writes...

my advice is stay away from heats pump water heaters go the split or roof mounted systems.

Coming from a person with 17 years' experience, this kind of advice is hard to ignore.

I had a scare the other day with our 16-y-old Bosch instantaneous gas water heater stopping and not responding to matches etc. any more... (I had bought the Bosch, and employed a local plumber to run a gas line from a dual LPG tank setup just outside the kitchen. He also connected the Grohe shower mixer I had 'pre-installed' inside a concrete block in the shower recess before tiling it, and connected all the copper pipes I had similarly deployed within the block walls – straight up and down job in the vertical hollows – in the common wall of bath and kitchen.)

So, I said to the wife, we're up for a new system! But which way to jump? In summer, we get enough hot water from the garden hose to wash the dishes, but in winter the trees shade the only logical spot for a ground-mounted evacuated solar H/W installation...

Decisions, decisions.

I wish spudds would give some more specific advice for people like us – and if at all possible, use a few breaks between sentences...

carioca writes...

Coming from a person with 17 years' experience, this kind of advice is hard to ignore.

I reckon his advice is full of crap.

aza123 writes...

The second night I had it, I thought it had stopped working and was getting worried as the water only seemed warm rather than hot. As it turned out, it was only running every second night because we do not use a lot of hot water.

Sounds like a problem to me.

ca6leguy writes...

Sounds like a problem to me.

Nope it's been fine ever since, just needed to use more hot water.

carioca writes...

In summer, we get enough hot water from the garden hose to wash the dishes, but in winter the trees shade the only logical spot for a ground-mounted evacuated solar H/W installation...

This is the main reason I went for a heat pump. I live in the Adelaide hills and I swear the sun doesn't come out from behind the clouds for a couple months during winter, but it is still warm enough for heat pumps to work. I also have a small amount of roof facing north, so if in the future I wanted to get solar power I wouldn't have any room for them, If I went with solar hot water.

SirLanceAfew writes...

Be warned, there are sharks everywhere presently, preying on peoples lack of knowledge on the rebates, and installation of these systems, which is very straightforward.

Speaking of lack of knowledge. You say you installed it yourself. How did you evacuate the pipework before commissioning it? Also how did you leak test it?

The other problem is it's illegal to install these diy as you need an arctick licence (and the appropriate tools) to work with refrigerant.

Youbloodybeauty writes...

you need an arctick licence (and the appropriate tools) to work with refrigerant.

Does that apply to connecting together the two parts of a Waeco 12V refrigeration plant? I'm asking because I still haven't connected mine up...

It doesn't appear to require special tools, just spanners, to connect the self-sealing pipe ends together, BTW.

aza123 writes...

I just got a rheem heat pump. Its the newer one with the compressor on the front and it holds 325l of water.

With our off peak circuit, we can boost the HWS if we run low of water. You simply press the booost switch in the meter box.

aza123 writes...

Nope it's been fine ever since, just needed to use more hot water.

LOL, save on electricity, waste on water.

Youbloodybeauty writes...

Speaking of lack of knowledge. You say you installed it yourself. How did you evacuate the pipework before commissioning it? Also how did you leak test it?

I had a plumber ( friend ) install the system. I bought the system direct from the supplier, cutting out crooks who want to jack up the price to whatever they think they can get away with.

Youbloodybeauty writes...

The other problem is it's illegal to install these diy as you need an arctick licence (and the appropriate tools) to work with refrigerant.

You dont need any tools to deal with the refrigerant side of things. The system is pre charged, with two couplings that need to be screwed together. Simple.

SirLanceAfew writes...

The system is pre charged, with two couplings that need to be screwed together. Simple.

So you're saying you didn't oil or leak detect the joints?

hmmm now thats worry... just half a turn loose ... say no more.

But : I did have the misfortune of getting a motel room late in the eve at Tamworth that had 4 heatpump hot water tanks right outside the window...

omg. everything rattled in the room, even the shroud on the lamp over the bedhead. that low frequency rumble drove me nuts.
I like solar or wood fired out here at my place.
cheers from the bush

pb006 writes...

Yes Dux warranty has issed a service request for a dump test on the hot water system.
Guess what service techs(2 of them and a dux specialialist over the the phone) from dux turned up today and could only get 90 Litres of h/w out of it, now they say they have never seen it b4 on a dump test,they think it might the design or a fault.
The biggest laugh is that if a sensor on the tank goes faulty or it goes out of calibrabation your screwed,you need to buy a new system as the thermistor is embodied into to styrofoam of the tank.Nobody can access it.
No serviceability.
Again looked at the siddons and I wish i could go back 3 months. Sucker born every minute!!!!!!

pb006 writes...

Again looked at the siddons and I wish i could go back 3 months. Sucker born every minute!!!!!!

surely they are going to replace for you ??
that is terrible

i had a company to quote me for siddons today.
wont get the price til monday but i suspect it is going to be not good news.
i have only a 270 litre tank now ........i thought it was 310 (guess i should read the labels or somthing)
there for i could go smaller than the 310 siddons.

i can keep the tank inside and put the compressor out.
or totally move both to where i can make it less noise producing ...hopefully

it seems to me that there is no hard numbers behind any of this.
there has to be a program out there somewhere that says if i used XX litres a year on cheapest off peak and was happy .........then a YY brand that heats between the hours of A-J will cost me $YY
or something

i am again told that the off peak tanks will be phased out next year.
i might get off peak and insulation rather than heat pump and no insulation

i wish the companies or someone would come up with some comparisons.

will see what the pricing comes out to

i finally squeezed a quote out of Rheem of $2900 odd for install and move.
which was not in writing and which was difficult to track down via energy australia.
i would take rebates etc etc off that price which then makes it very cheap.......like what my neighbour paid

oldtimewoman writes...

surely they are going to replace for you ??

that is terrible

So far dux reps are going to come back and forward,It must be difficult to get a changeover.Ill give them another week...
Thats week 15 of a crap system
The siddons looks the go and i would pay the extra $ for it if i had a 2nd chance.

Youbloodybeauty writes...

So you're saying you didn't oil or leak detect the joints?

LOL. Everyones an expert ( and a sceptic ). Yes, I did oil the joints, as it says in the installation manual. Yes, the connections were leak tested with soapy water, as it says to do in the installation manual. Anything else I didnt do ?

oldtimewoman writes...

i might get off peak and insulation rather than heat pump and no insulation

Yes. Have a good think about that one. Although the Siddons is working fine, I really dont stand to save heaps of dollars by replacing the off peak electric. Our house was using around $70 a quarter of off peak electricity ( we had a 400 litre off peak electric tank ), so some of that would of been running our 2 fridges as well as heating the water. So it may drop the off peak bill to $20 ? or so a quarter ( wait to see the bill on a quarter ). Hardly a huge saving, peanuts really. Off peak electricity is still so dirt cheap really. Im betting though that they jack up or remove off peak electricity in coming years. Im getting 2kw of pv panels on the roof soon, so may switch the hot water over to use the electricity from these.

SirLanceAfew writes...

Off peak electricity is still so dirt cheap really. Im betting though that they jack up or remove off peak electricity in coming years. Im getting 2kw of pv panels on the roof soon, so may switch the hot water over to use the electricity from these.

i think that there must be a plan somewhere by someone about the ultimate higher prices for electricity LOL
or is our state government more disconnected than i believe??
if off peak tanks go... that might be the first stage ?
if off peak rates were to be raised it really makes it tricky for some people in some buildings

what bothers me is that every house is not that well placed for solar panels.
similarly i am not really well placed for heat pumps either. i could put in a heat pump and it might or might not bother the present neighbours. that is no guarantee that when people move that this tolerance wouldnt change.
it is ok if u are on a ¼ block but once u start to subdivide and live like i do with 3 houses (seperate) on one monster old block and with two houses on each block surrounding me......we start to talk about close density.
i cant imagine how it would be in blocks with town houses that are joined wall to wall.
apartment blocks??????????

the other thing that bothers me is the advice that goes around.
the company yesterday suggested i go straight to all day tariff.
my jaw dropped and i asked why.
because of noise issues.
ummmmm.......so i suggested that i would prefer to test my neighbours tolerance in cheap off peak first and resort of less cheap off peak with a timer.
the timer i was informed was $270 plus install.
if all else failed... only then would i ever every consider using full day rate.
which would mean that i got rather costly hot water i guess

that is madness if that sort of suggestion is going around.
we are apparently allowed one free change of times.

i am the main user of our hot water........due to my belief in the theraputic benefits of long hot showers.
maybe i had better look at buying an old chip heater of my childhood and run it on some yet to be determined fuel source

???????/

SirLanceAfew writes...

LOL. Everyones an expert ( and a sceptic ). Yes, I did oil the joints, as it says in the installation manual.

You had refrigeration oil handy? Good work.

Yes, the connections were leak tested with soapy water, as it says to do in the installation manual. Anything else I didnt do ?

Pretty much not being licenced to do the work is my issue. Soapy water won't always pick up a leaking compression joint so a qualified person would use an electronic leak detector. Soapy water does far better on pinhole leaks where it fully covers the leak. A compression joint has to leak a lot before it'll start blowing bubbles.

wow

i finally cornered my neighbour.
he thinks he would be affected by the noise of a heat pump.
his own makes too much noise for him.
it is situated next to his neighbours bathroom and living room.
i had wondered how he got away with it, but what i thought was a bedroom is part of a living room

they are bothered my the whirly bird on the roof of the other side neighbour.
suggested i give it a go!!!!!!!
ummmmmmm not to the tune of what the siddons will cost me in the best of possible places.

my only option now is to look at solar panels.
like a doob i have not measured the bit of north facing roof i have and i never see it on a day to day basis.
however, much to my suprise, i think i might be able to squeeze in a few panels.
neighbour thinks they mighgt be a bit shiny because they will be facing their house.
i am in a strata block so it gets complicated.
i think i will have to get quotes and call a strata meeting to make sure it is ok for the future if it flies price wisde

saving the planet is sometimes really stupid work !!!!!!

Youbloodybeauty writes...

You had refrigeration oil handy? Good work.

Said mineral oil in the manual, probably the same thing.

Pretty much not being licenced to do the work is my issue.

Soapy water won't always pick up a leaking compression joint

That's what it said to use in the installation manual. Anyway, if it leaks, it leaks, and then stops working. If it had a leak, it probably would have stopped working by now.

From the Siddons site:

"Do I require a plumber to install a Solarstream?

Yes or you will void your warranty. There are specific factors relating to your water supply that plumbers will take into account. In particular, a pressure limiting valve should be installed and set to 500kPa maximum.

Do I require a refrigeration mechanic to install a Solarstream?

You don't need a licensed refrigeration mechanic if your plumber holds a Restricted Split System Air Conditioning Installation and Decommissioning License (Certificate II course under the Australian Refrigeration Council's code RSS03), covering air conditioning and heat pump split systems."

No, my plumber doesn't have this qualification ( how many do ? ). I'll take my chances here. ( warranty voided, probably maybe yes )

getting a saxon 400l heat pump hot water soon
anybody have an opinion on this brand
by all counts looks good to me

400L thats a lot of hot water! Ummm not sure how cold it gets where you live, but It says ( if I am looking at the same one as you ) that the saxon doesn't have a electric booster??? If so heat pumps don't really work under five degree's and need a element for a booster.

aza123 writes...

If so heat pumps don't really work under five degree's and need a element for a booster.

Siddons goes from -5 degrees to 40 degrees +. The saxon is nearly identical to the siddons, but has the copper storage tank vs stainless steel. Dont know which would be better, I suppose it comes down to price. But the siddons also has a 10 year guarantee on the tank vs 5 for the Saxon and Siddons recommends off peak connection, where Saxon says that continuous supply is better for theirs.

aza123 writes...

just got a rheem heat pump. Its the newer one with the compressor on the front and it holds 325l of water

I ended up going with this one too.

Got it installed today. $1020 after all the rebates.

Very quiet – That was my main concern.

I had a shower after 4 hours and the water was warm. Not hot.

We installed those quarter turn taps a while ago and found that you only need to turn the cold tap on about half of what you would put the hot water tap.

Well after the Rheem hot water pump i cant turn the cold on at all – Otherwise i will be having a cold shower.

And so i have low water pressure with just the hot tap on.

Not sure if it needs longer to heat or because we moved the hot water system outside that it's too far.

I will check it out over the next few days and then give them a call for some suggestions.

Wow good price! It takes longer than 4Hrs for its first heat cycle. Mine took about 6Hrs before it was 'Hot'. From memory it heats to 70degrees when running with heat pump and heats to 65degrees with the booster element. Is the unit running off peak only?

aza123 writes...

Is the unit running off peak only?

No, the recommended on continuous only.

But i have read a few forums where people debate this.

For the saxon ,
Im in newcastle NSW installers recommend for my family
2a 2k op2 which i have changed to.
The 400l is not the holding capacity like old elec heated units
but a holding capacity that the heat pumps hold to heat water running through pipes
that run through that (get my drift)

ablecross writes...

No, the recommended on continuous only.

Mine still runs off peak only as I wanted to try it out to save some money. It works fine for us although as our little one gets older I think it will change. So do you have lots of hot water yet? I would be surprised if it was still luke warm.

benn writes...

The 400l is not the holding capacity like old elec heated units
but a holding capacity that the heat pumps hold to heat water running through pipes
that run through that (get my drift)

I get it. Hay I would have a 1000L if its was still cheap to buy and run.

aza123 writes...

So do you have lots of hot water yet? I would be surprised if it was still luke warm.

Still luke warm ! ! !

If i turn the cold water on just a couple of mm – The shower is ice cold.

I will still give it a couple of days. And then i will give them a call for suggestions.

I am not a plumber but my guess is:

1/ The hot water system moved a metre to the left, not very far but maybe enough to screw up my hot water. Yet i have friends who's Hotwater systems are way further away and they get great temp and pressure.

2/ Adjusting the mains water tap.

3/ Is there a new thingy that limits the temperature of the hot water ? I cant remember what the temp was set too on the old hot water system but if this new one can heat to 70 Degrees i cant imagine you would need it hotter than that.

70 degrees cant be warm water can it ? Is it ?

4/ Even though he said it would take only 4 hours to heat, he said the green flashing light would ...flash for 2 days. Now i am not sure what it is doing for the 2 days but hopefully it ends in HOT HOT water.

2 days. Ok I am surprised by that. Have a look in the manual, it tells you what the flashing light sequence means – there are many. It should have a mixer unit on it that will automatically mix cold water into the hot water after the hot water exits unit. This is a safety thing and it limit's the temp to 55degree's ( I think I am not a plumber ). But it should be hot enough that you need to use the cold water tap in your shower unless you like really hot shower's. Are those quarter turn taps water saving device's? If they are and you didn't have that safety device I just mentioned above with your old hot water service, then maybe the two combined together are keeping the water temp down. But even still with hot water tap on only, you shouldn't be able to put any part of your body under it for more than a few second's.

aza123 writes...

Are those quarter turn taps water saving device's?

No, they just make it simple to turn on and it's an instant mix of hot and cold. You still can adjust them, i needed less cold water (before new heat pump install).

But now it's extreme – I need no cold water at all.

Downstairs in the kitchen we have normal taps, they are also warm – Not hot, hot , hot.

you shouldn't be able to put any part of your body under it for more than a few second's

I can hold my hand under it for an unlimited amount of time. Not claiming to be superman, just saying my hot water aint hot enough.

ablecross writes...

Still luke warm ! ! !

If i turn the cold water on just a couple of mm – The shower is ice cold.

Sounds like the output temp of the hotwater system isnt set high enough. It is probably set at the minimum or somewhere around 40 degrees C.
There should be a thermo stat control, bump it up to 60.

fl_optus writes...

Sounds like the output temp of the hotwater system isnt set high enough. It is probably set at the minimum or somewhere around 40 degrees C.
There should be a thermo stat control, bump it up to 60

I don't think these are adjustable. When running as heat pump it should get to 70degree's. Feel free to correct me. ( rheem brand )

aza123 writes...

I don't think these are adjustable. When running as heat pump it should get to 70degree's. Feel free to correct me. ( rheem brand )

I was thinking the same thing.

There were people in previous post's complaining about how crap the heat pumps were. They went out and bought an element and a thermostat to convert them into a regular hot water system.

The Rheem has a backup element but it's possible there is no thermostat.

I think you've been rheemed.

ablecross writes...

There were people in previous post's complaining about how crap the heat pumps were

I live in a cold area and my unit is in a cold location, it never gets any sun on it. My water is really hot, so maybe give it another day and get it looked at if it doesn't improve. The water in my kitchen comes direct from the unit without the mixer tap adding cold water and it scaled my missus the first time she filled up the sink because she was used to the old service.

The tempering valve is the thing that limits the Temperature.

Anyone know what they look like and if it's possible to remove them without destroying the Hot Water System ?......and myself.

A tempering valve looks like a funny sort of tap with 3 pipes going into it.
One will be a hot pipe directly from the water heater, one will be cold and the 3rd is the output pipe which carries the tempered water, usually set to 50D C, but they are adjustable.
It will be near the hot water heater usually.
They are adjustable, but some have a plastic cover over the adjustment knob.

mauried writes...

A tempering valve looks like a funny sort of tap with 3 pipes going into it

They are adjustable, but some have a plastic cover over the adjustment knob

THANK YOU.

You just described exactly what i have got.

I just hope it is adjustable. I have read about a few people having to get rid of them completely.

But it does have a big plastic cap on it – When i get home hopefully i will find the adjustment knob. (insert joke here)

ablecross writes...

But it does have a big plastic cap on it – When i get home hopefully i will find the adjustment knob.

Pop that cap off. Underneath is the adjustment. I think clockwise is hotter (from memory). You will be able to tell immediately.

aza123 writes...

I don't think these are adjustable. When running as heat pump it should get to 70degree's. Feel free to correct me. ( rheem brand )

Rheem heat pumps have a varying temperature control (located under the cover where the power is connected to the unit for the 310L model). The default temp should be 60deg but can be turned up all the way to 80deg. But be careful, the warranty for the unit is voided if you increase the temp to above 76deg.

lyno writes...

Rheem heat pumps have a varying temperature control (located under the cover where the power is connected to the unit for the 310L model). The default temp should be 60deg but can be turned up all the way to 80deg. But be careful, the warranty for the unit is voided if you increase the temp to above 76deg.

Thanks.

So if i assume that the Rheem is preset to 60deg and my Tempering Valve is set to 50deg – A tempering valve adjustment should do it.

If not – adjustments to both. I think 60 degrees would be enough.

Thank you very much – I tend to be focused on one thing specifically. If adjusting the Tempering valve did not work i would not have even thought to check the Actual Rheem itself.

That and i was under the impression they did not have a Temperature Control – Preset to 70 Degrees.

I have a feeling that all will be fixed tonight. Some good info here today.

UPDATE: I am home – And i had a Hot shower – Not a warm one, a HOT one.

But alas i still have pressure problems. Slightest touch of cold water and i am having a cold shower. Turn the cold water practically off and you have a weak shower.

I turned down the mains tap and that did not help. I was thinking if the pressure was too much from the mains, that it was forcing too much cold through.

I checked out the tempering valve, looks straight forward except you need a triangle shaped tool to adjust it. But since the temperature was all good i did not mess with it yet.

I did notice an adjustment tap on the cold water pipe into the Hot water System. That may be what gets me my pressure. Once again i dont want to mess with it yet, i will give them a call tomorrow from work and then update.

I finally had a look through the instruction manual. Sorry to all those who have already posted this info for me. Look at it as a sum up of all things so far.

1/ Confirmed that warranty is voided if temp is set above 76 Degrees.

2/ The heat pump is set to keep the water at 60 Degrees.

3/ If the backup (element) needs to kick in the water temp will go to 70 Degrees.

4/ It says " The thermostats controlling the heat pump and booster heating unit are factory set and not adjustable"

I will be back after a phone call tomorrow.

I had a stiebel eltron wwk300a installed the other day and it took about 9 hours until it was heated and they are factory set to 60 deg. I was told that you don't want them heating past 60 deg as the efficiency drops rapidly (the gas used for compressing can only get to about 90 deg). The tempering valve is set just a tad to low for my liking (water is still hot but I like it really hot) so I will turn it up just a bit.

I can say that it has been working well for us and I have been running it on a timer set at 7 hours per day (but I believe it has been running for maybe 5) and no running out of hot water yet (family of 4) and we do like to bath and shower! Running it during the middle of the day to maximize efficiency as it has been rather cold lately (Castle Hill NSW).

Will see how the electricity bill is but this particular heat pump only draws 2.3 amps max so its quite a bit less of a draw than the old electric system it replaced that was drawing closer to 15 amps.

The unit is connected to the off peak 1 meter as the installer bypassed the time switch of the meter as advised by the electricity company. They have such a backlog of off peak meter changes from 1 to 2 due to all the heat pumps going in. I hope that they don't get to mine in any hurry! I estimate we are spending 30c per day for hot water at the moment. Will recoup the $399 out of pocket expense very quickly and also help the environment.
cheers

The Hot water guys are coming back tomorrow and from my conversation on the phone they think it's the tempering valve.

My only doubt was that the water is hot enough now – i cant imagine it getting any hotter. Thats why i thought it may have something to do with the cold water pressure tap on the system.

But they are the experts.

Will report back tomorrow.

Can you see any filters?

Ours got blocked and seriously diminished the hot pressure we were getting out of our HWS. A quick clean and it was all good.

lyno writes...

From my personal experience stay away from a heat pump system. Got the Rheem 310 ltr model just over 12 months ago and compressor is no longer working, luckily it has a booster element working on J tarrif otherwise we would have no hot water.

Ok finally got the unit checked out last week.

Turned out to be a faulty impellor which the technician replaced. From what he said this is a common problem and that Rheem are aware of it. So even though the part was out of warranty he didnt charge for the job which was a nice surprise!

Also, if you have neibours close by your home (especially bedrooms) forget about this option. The noice is shocking!

Also found that since the part was replaced the unit is much quieter.

So much happier overall with the unit. Lets just hope it lasts....

Has anyone here installed a heat pump system in a really cold environment?

I live in Canberra and am looking to replace my old electric HWS.

I've been leaning towards a solar system such as the Hills evacuated tube, but the roof I will put it on faces due west. The solar people have told me they can mount the collector on a frame, but I'm not too keen on having a scaffold on the roof at the front of the house.

So I've been thinking about something like the Siddons split heat pump system. My only concern is the cold mornings here in Canberra where it is regularly below 0.

JKR writes...

My only concern is the cold mornings here in Canberra where it is regularly below 0.

Have a talk to the Siddons people, but their system is apparently rated to minus 5. Obviously the colder the ambient temp, the longer the pump will run to warm the water, but the siddons is only using about 1 kwh electricity, and it has a very efficient heat pump design ( much larger than rheem's, dux's etc.) which alows it to operate in cooler climates from what I understand. Mines been working great, but I live in Sydney ( not quite as cool as Canberra ). No trouble heating up the water on off peak, night temps have been down to about 6 degrees or so. Remember that the sub zero temps at Canberra, may only peak for an hour or two during winter, if the pump runs at a different time of the night (earlier), or when running during the other seasons of the year, you'll probably have no problem.

JKR writes...

I live in Canberra and am looking to replace my old electric HWS

Do you have gas in Canberra?

It just gets weirder !

The Hot Water guys came out and had a look at the shower and a quick look at the Heat Pump.

I learned that apart from the Tempering valve there is also a pressure limiting valve connected.

This has nothing to do with the Heat Pump Systems, apparently it's for larger Hot water systems. Mine is a Rheem 325lt.

More water = Too much pressure = Pressure limiting valve.

So what the hell do you do now – Every person in the world with a 325Lt Hot Water system cant be having weak showers.

The quarter turn taps are the problems. Apparently they dont let all the water come through. Went out and purchased some normal taps today

But i am yet to put them on.

Once again – I will be back.

350ztt writes...

The unit is connected to the off peak 1 meter as the installer bypassed the time switch of the meter as advised by the electricity company. They have such a backlog of off peak meter changes from 1 to 2 due to all the heat pumps going in. I hope that they don't get to mine in any hurry! I estimate we are spending 30c per day for hot water at the moment. Will recoup the $399 out of pocket expense very quickly and also help the environment.

Just to let you know Electricity Companies do not dictate which Off-Peak Tariff you should be on. This is your decision to make and you only need to go on Off-Peak 2 if your running out of hot water. Domestic all time tariff is only used by the Rh**m owners as far as I know because the tanks are so inefficient. It's true the Energy Companies are flat out with these changeovers but half would not be required if the customer tried it out on Off-Peak 1 first. Plumbers also know that to avoid call backs Off-Peak 2 is a safe option but again this is not compulsory.

jd9degree writes...

Electricity Companies do not dictate which Off-Peak Tariff you should be on.

Thanks for the info. We did run out of hot water today but we had 6 showers before. Not to worry we have been out all day so got home tonight and all was heated again.

I did look into the off peak 1 & 2 tariffs and to my surprise I found out that Integral energy (my supplier Hills district NSW) have now written into their energy price guide starting 1 july 2009 that hot water heat pumps are not permitted to be connected to this Pricing Option of off peak 1 tariff.

Now I am not 100% sure that they are referring to hot water heat pumps here (but I assume it is as it is in the section for hot water) but it looks like they are trying to maximise their profits with all these pumps going in. I wouldn't be surprised that the other energy suppliers have or will go the same route.

Not to worry as off peak 2 looks like the way to go for our family anyway.

cheers and thanks for the info too.

further to the above looks like they are talking about hot water heat pumps for sure. this is what they have under off peak 2 pricing option:

"an electric heat pump with a minimum tank size of 250 litres is permitted to be connected to this Pricing Option but not the Off-Peak 1 Pricing Option"

They want the most money they can get seeing now that we are more efficient!

cheers

JKR writes...

Has anyone here installed a heat pump system in a really cold environment?

I have had a Quantum 270 running for 2 years in Lawson in the Blue Mountains. Probably not as cold as Canberra but our family of five have never run out of hot water and we run the unit on off peak tarrif.

Got a saxon 400L put in the other day.
All working well with plenty of hot water and reasonable pressure on op2
Only problem is the compresser is a little noisy (louder than my Mitsubishi 3hp a/c)
since its near the daughter room its hard for her to go to sleep at approx 9.30-10.00
Just wondering is there a timer device i could install so it switches on at say midnight -1am when she is asleep. As i would like to stay on op2
thanks

I've had a Quantum 270l since 2006. Works really well and noise is very low. It's just outside son's bedroom and he doesn't notice it running. It only runs for a few hours per day anyway.

benn writes...

Just wondering is there a timer device i could install so it switches on at say midnight -1am when she is asleep. As i would like to stay on op2
thanks

There are timers you can have installed into your meter box but you need a sparky. I have a Stiebel Eltron (no booster element) so at 11pm it starts running but after a month now everyone is used to the noise. Not sure where you are located because in my network (Energy Australia) off-peak night rate doesn't start until 11pm.

For all the others out there wondering about Off-Peak and which Heat Pump.

I spoke to a technician today about Heatpumps and Off-Peak. He mentioned a few things that make it difficult for anyone to make the right choice regarding which rate to go on and which model to choose.

*Firstly one particular company will not give you a warranty unless you go on to 24/7 tariff as they think their electronics won't cope with the constant on and off when using off-peak.

• Next he mentioned Rheem have a model with a 800 watt compressor and a model with a 1300 watt compressor. The recovery rates of these tanks is vastly different. At a 10 degree celcius ambient outside air temperature, at 60% relative humidity, the 800 watt model only recovers
  the water at 25 litres an hour (but only to 45 degrees above the temperature of the incoming cold water).This would mean off-peak 1 would not have enough time to reheat the water and to make things even more difficult for the smaller compressor model, the night time temps at the moment are quite low.
• Also the booster element on many models only operates if the outside ambient air temperature is below 5 degrees celsius and then the element only heats the top 100 litres of the tank. Therefore a customer with no hot water at 7 degrees celsius outiside air temperature would receive no electric boost.
• The location of the tank at the site, e.g. south side of house in winter is going to have a dramatically lower recovery rate than one in full sun during winter, i.e. same amount of power used for less hot water, for the tank on the south side.
• The noise of some models if affecting some customer's and/or their neighbour's ability to sleep. People are changing to off peak 2 so that a timer can be installed to prevent the units operating at night, i.e. they are prepared to pay the premium on the tariff to get some peace and quiet.

Good luck with your choice but I have to say again that my tank has no electronics and a very good recovery rate and as long as Energy Australia doesn't go down the path of Integral Energy, I'm staying on Off-Peak 1.

p.s My tank is inside a double garage so ambient air temps over night are not as bad as if it was outside. The cars also warm the garage so I suppose I'm converting some of that warm air into hot water too.

Hey jd9degree have you been able to find any info on the recovery rate of the Stiebel Eltron WWK300A?
If you have then I wouldn't mind having a link to it.
cheers

jd9degree writes...

*Firstly one particular company will not give you a warranty unless you go on to 24/7 tariff as they think their electronics won't cope with the constant on and off when using off-peak.

Which company ? What do you mean by constant on/off when using offpeak ? My Siddons is using offpeak 1, comes on for 2 hours at night and then switches off until the next nights heating cycle. No constant on/off that I can see.

Sorry people – I am still yet to replace my Quarter Turn taps and let you all know the results. I have purchased the taps but really cannot be bothered tooloing around with them after work. Friday is a half day so it will happen then.

Question: Has anybody got their rebate cheque Yet ?

If so, how long did it take ?

EDIT: I thought the water was Hot enough but my wife said the other day that it was not as hot as before. i didn't really notice.
So i will adjust the tempering valve aswell and let you know if i live to tell the tale.

ablecross writes...

Question: Has anybody got their rebate cheque Yet ?

Guaranteed to take longer than for you to get hot water out of your taps ;)

ablecross writes...

Question: Has anybody got their rebate cheque Yet ?

Have not even got the bill yet.

jd9degree writes...

Not sure where you are located because in my network (Energy Australia) off-peak night rate doesn't start until 11pm.

Im in newcastle with energy Australia on off-peak 2
and its been coming pack on at around 9.30 just as my daughter is trying to go to sleep.Only takes an hour to heat the tank up again so thats why i would like it to switch back on at say midnight-1am.
After showing in the morning we have all day to about 5pm of electricity to heat
the tank again,the noise is no problem in the day.
Yes i think you are right about getting used to it,used to live on a main road years ago after a while did not notice the traffic
thanks for the reply

If anybody is using a timer can please tell me where they got it from and its prices
thanks

Use a 12 point socket on the triangular shaped adjuster.
Anticlockwise for hotter.
They normally only allow 50c past them nowdays (regs)

Bazzle

bazzle writes...

triangular shaped adjuster.

Anticlockwise for hotter.

There's obviously different varieties – Mine's pentagon shaped, and clockwise for hotter.

bazzle writes...

Use a 12 point socket on the triangular shaped adjuster.

Anticlockwise for hotter.

They normally only allow 50c past them nowdays (regs)

I found a better solution – I opened my eyes.

The plastic cap that covers the Tempering valve has a triangle indent on the end of it. I was thinking you would need something stronger like a wrench. But alas No.

It only had a tiny adjustment left in it. Has not made much difference.

As for my water pressure problem – I finally replaced the Quarter turn taps with normal taps and surprise, surprise.....No friggin difference at all.

I think the pressure limiting valve is causing the problem. And since that cant be removed i cant do much about it.

I will have to look at shower heads. Getting a bit sick of spending throwing money down the tubes.

UPDATE: I was told to remove a water saver disc from the shower head to help with water pressure. Behold – I have water pressure again.

I cant believe after all the nonsense thats what made the biggest difference.

350ztt writes...

Will recoup the $399 out of pocket expense very quickly and also help the environment.

Hi 350ztt, I am thinking of replacing my existing electric HWS with a stiebel eltron wwk300a very soon. Been able to get a quote for $499 installed, but noticed you mentioned $399. Could you share the installer details please? I live close to Castle Hill. Cheers GK

gworld writes...

Hi 350ztt, I am thinking of replacing my existing electric HWS with a stiebel eltron wwk300a very soon. Been able to get a quote for $499 installed, but noticed you mentioned $399. Could you share the installer details please? I live close to Castle Hill. Cheers GK

I used easy being green. They were at $399 when I got it done but it has now gone to $499 due to the rec prices going down in value lately. The installers were organised by them.
If you want to pm they offered me a referral discount and I am happy to pass this onto you somehow?
cheers

Well I just got back after a week in the snow and I still have a leaking tank and a decision pending.

The more I think about the maintenance and replacement cost without rebate assistance in 5 – 10 years I'm thinking that I may just replace my 400L tank under warranty with the same unit – at least it will only cost me installation as the tank is under warranty.

Perhaps putting money into solar electric would be a better bet long term.

Maybe in 10 years time we might know more of the true running costs for these units here after all the rebate junk has been taken out of the equation...

I had the guys from Dux out this morning

I opted to just get my existing cylinder replaced and forget any solar rebate etc.

It will cost me $220 in labor to swap over my leaking tank with a new one.

I will wait for the governments new solar electric rebate scheme and go that option if it's worth.

The industry here is in it's infancy so I will wait to see what happens before jumping in – I wonder what sort of costs people are going to be up for in 5 years time when compressors etc on heat pumps start failing :-(

The service guy was telling me that the anodes are easily replaceable and that if you replace them every 5 years you should be able to keep your tank going for years – sadly some of the new hot water units (on heat pumps etc) are being made so that the anodes are not user replaceable! Obviously it's not in a manufacturers interest to keep tanks going long term well beyond warranty!

I think you'll find that the hot water guys you had come over didn't really know what they were talking about. All the heat pump systems I have seen have had a replaceable anode. I think the only one I came acroos that didn't was the Saxon and siddons ones (one was copper and the other stainless).

They have had heat pumps in Europe for 4 decades – these things are not new! Just need to make sure that the correct brand/type heat pump is purchased because like everything there is differences in quality etc etc.

Be happy with your decision but please don't take the casual conversation with a hot water installer as gospel.

cheers

Follow up to my dux saga,since june the 1st airoheat got repaired 3 times and faile with deice and only 110 l of hot water,
2nd unit died also the same death as unit 1 after 2 attempts to perform.
Hey im on unit 3 and still the same,going for a refund,airoheat is a dud.
Facts
siddons can get 220l of hot water out of there 327 l tank
stiebel eltron get 80% of 303 l tank.240l
Only honest 2 that commited to realistic hotwater delivery when questioned

350ztt writes...

I think you'll find that the hot water guys you had come over didn't really know what they were talking about. All the heat pump systems I have seen have had a replaceable anode. I think the only one I came acroos that didn't was the Saxon and siddons ones (one was copper and the other stainless).

By not 'user replaceable' i meant if you look at some of the heat pumps, the pump is on top of the unit (in some cases – fixed) and therefore you cannot just slide in a replacement anode. You would need to have them come out and replace the unit – hence my comment 'user replaceable' – I was not saying they are not replaceable – just not user replaceable.

They have had heat pumps in Europe for 4 decades – these things are not new! Just need to make sure that the correct brand/type heat pump is purchased because like everything there is differences in quality etc etc.

Yes, I realise this – but the industry here as far as consumers are concerned is fairly new. Installers are ripping people off left right and centre due to general customer ignorance at the moment.

Hasn't STIEBEL ELTRON only just started ramping up in Australia in the domestic market for example?

Be happy with your decision but please don't take the casual conversation with a hot water installer as gospel.

Nothing could be further from the truth in actual fact. The devils in the detail...

Maveri writes...

The industry here is in it's infancy so I will wait to see what happens before jumping in – I wonder what sort of costs people are going to be up for in 5 years time when compressors etc on heat pumps start failing :-(

This will most certainly be the case on the Rheems, Dux's etc. As for Siddons, Saxons that have the seperate heat pump unit, the same basic design as those used for decades for home air conditioning, they should go way beyond 5 years without any problem. They only run for around 2 hours per day on these models, not working them really hard at all, and being a seperate heat pump, repairs or replacement is straight forward.

SirLanceAfew writes...

This will most certainly be the case on the Rheems, Dux's etc.

True and to be fair to the Dux guy, he wasn't exactly pushing dux at all :-) He actually worked for another company – it's just that he had to put on his dux coat as this was a dux warranty call.

Dam – I'm in too minds now!

How much of your power bill gets cut down by going for a heat pump solution? 25%?

If the unit lasts longer than say 5 years I could be ahead – perhaps?

Anyone know the approximate cost of a STIEBEL ELTRON install in Sydney (with rebates applied?). On various sites it seems that the online calculators are 'offline' probably due to the rex points reduction and everyone scrambling to work out change-over cost.

Dam it – I hate being totally unconvinced in my choice...

There are only two brands I would go for Stiebel Eltron or siddons solarstream. Don't go for a Saxon as they won't allow for more than one hot water tap to be on at one time! Then the other brands rely on only running general tarriff (but can run off peak 2), and/or using a backup element, and/or are made in China, and/or get a bad wrap.

Stiebel is $499 from easybeingreen.com.au went up from $399 when I had mine done a while ago. If you ever want one of these I will get you a $50 discount via them (but not sure for how long).

Some quick numbers (all real world):

My hot water bill last financial year was $280 after all discounts etc. If you apply the price increase of 20% to this then it would be approx $336 for this coming year.

I have been running my stiebel on a timer and it runs for a MAXimum 8 hours per day (3 during the day and 5 at night). 8 hrs x 550 watts @ 6.93c per kilowatt = $111 per year ($117 after adding off peak access fee and applying discount). Now these savings which are fantastic in my book will probably be even better as in summer the COP will be much higher. It may only run for a few hours per day.

I chose the Stiebel as it is the most efficient in the market and they did not try to fudge any of their claims (many other companies make very unrealistic claims!). I spoke to many people and did alot of research. My next choice was the Siddons but the efficiency was not as good and the price difference was large. There also is a pump that is made in NZ which would have been my pick but they still do not have any approvals here in Oz so no REC's. It was the most efficient and best performing by a small margin and the Stiebel was second.

Horses for courses. The rebates aren't due to end for a while BUT it may be pulled sooner like the solar elec rebate. Who knows.
cheers

350ztt writes...

There are only two brands I would go for Stiebel Eltron or siddons solarstream. Don't go for a Saxon as they won't allow for more than one hot water tap to be on at one time! Then the other brands rely on only running general tarriff (but can run off peak 2), and/or using a backup element, and/or are made in China, and/or get a bad wrap.

Excellent – I had sort of narrowed it down to these – thanks for the conformation

Some quick numbers (all real world):

My hot water bill last financial year was $280 after all discounts etc. If you apply the price increase of 20% to this then it would be approx $336 for this coming year.

I have been running my stiebel on a timer and it runs for a MAXimum 8 hours per day (3 during the day and 5 at night). 8 hrs x 550 watts @ 6.93c per kilowatt = $111 per year ($117 after adding off peak access fee and applying discount). Now these savings which are fantastic in my book will probably be even better as in summer the COP will be much higher. It may only run for a few hours per day.

This is excellent to know actual data from someone who's got one – thank you once again

I chose the Stiebel as it is the most efficient in the market and they did not try to fudge any of their claims (many other companies make very unrealistic claims!). I spoke to many people and did alot of research. My next choice was the Siddons but the efficiency was not as good and the price difference was large. There also is a pump that is made in NZ which would have been my pick but they still do not have any approvals here in Oz so no REC's. It was the most efficient and best performing by a small margin and the Stiebel was second.

ok – that settles it for me – Stiebel it is. I think they have the long term reputation as well – at least compared to dux / rheem who seems to have jumped into the market at the 11th hour.

Horses for courses. The rebates aren't due to end for a while BUT it may be pulled sooner like the solar elec rebate. Who knows.
cheers

Mate – much appreciated you responding and providing some extra data / information.

I have called the plumbing people and told them to put my job on hold for now until I sort of some more options.

Now all I need to do is source a supplier to do the job – i think the unit I will need is the boosted unit as I have 7 people to provide hot water for – If the hot water isn't enough for that many people then we will need to modify our use/times I guess.

350ztt writes...

My next choice was the Siddons but the efficiency was not as good and the price difference was large. There also is a pump that is made in NZ which would have been my pick but they still do not have any approvals here in Oz so no REC's. It was the most efficient and best performing by a small margin and the Stiebel was second.

Rung siddons yesterday ,delay of 8 weeks is due to the pumps being made in china,ahhhhhh
But again I definetly agree with you on you choice on the stiebel eltron with the performance side,Ive been following your comments to Maveri.Thanks and well done.

Maveri writes...

Now all I need to do is source a supplier to do the job – i think the unit I will need is the boosted unit as I have 7 people to provide hot water for – If the hot water isn't enough for that many people then we will need to modify our use/times I guess

Im with you ,aonly5 here but will have to wait till i get a refund from dux.
If I wasnt so gung ho when the salesman sold me the dux dud.
Spoke to Stiebel and the say they can get upto 80% of hotwater out of there unit,majority of others spin the bull saying 100% ,most others are between 56-65% but they tell you that..

Maveri writes...

I have 7 people to provide hot water for – If the hot water isn't enough for that many people then we will need to modify our use/times I guess.

And that is your dilemma. You will need the backup element for sure. Ring the Stiebel people direct and ask to talk to the rep for your area and pick their brains about the system and your families usage of hot water.

The Stiebel has a slower recovery rate than the siddons and dare I say the quantum. That is why it's energy saving ($$$) potential is greater than the others, downside is the heatup time. It draws 2.3 amps compared to the siddons which is 4.5 amps. COP Stiebel is 4 (@ 25c with 15c water temp) and the siddons is 3 (they state 3 to 3.5) but no mention of what temp they have used (though I have no reason to doubt their claims). We don't run out of hot water but there is only 4 of us and sometimes 5. We have water saving shower heads (this is a must have) but we aren't massive greenies – we like to be clean and I can take a long shower!

The thing I like about the backup element in the Stiebel is that it will only kick in for the top 100 litres or so and ONLY if the temp in the tank is 45c or less (it doesn't kick in willy nilly like some of the other systems out their). Saying that however, the problem some may have with 'larger' families is that running it on anything less than off peak 2 (or at worst even general tariff) you may run out of hot water and the backup element won't kick in IF that point in time is out of the off peak power times (pretty sure that the bakup element is not wired independently but I could be wrong so check it out thoroughly)
I will have to consider the backup element ($300 option) when our inlaws come to stay with us for an extended period.

Just do your homework as I am sure most have that frequent these forums and get the best system to suit your needs. cheers

Maveri writes...

How much of your power bill gets cut down by going for a heat pump solution? 25%?

I think you should have a close look at your current electricity bill, as everyone's situation will be different.

I was seriously looking at installing a new system until I looked over old electricity bills. My family (2 adults, 2 young kids) only pays $140 per year in hot water bills for our stock standard 250L electric tank setup hooked up to off peak tariff. Somehow I can't see how I can save much at all going solar / heat pump if my bill is already so low.

350ztt writes...

been running my stiebel on a timer and it runs for a MAXimum 8 hours per day (3 during the day and 5 at night).

Serious. My Siddons has been running for 2 hours off peak at night ( impressive in this cold weather ) to supply hot water for our family of 4. 327 litre siddons cost me $900 out of pocket installed after rebates, so yes, it was more expensive, but still great value imo. The stainless tank was the clincher for me, and probably the best warranty.

pb006 writes...

Rung siddons yesterday ,delay of 8 weeks is due to the pumps being made in china,ahhhhhh

I wouldnt worry too much about this. Isnt that where 90% are made these days ?

A P writes...

I was seriously looking at installing a new system until I looked over old electricity bills. My family (2 adults, 2 young kids) only pays $140 per year in hot water bills for our stock standard 250L electric tank setup hooked up to off peak tariff. Somehow I can't see how I can save much at all going solar / heat pump if my bill is already so low.

I think your correct. I only went heat pump because I needed a new hot water system, and the generous rebates meant it was cheaper than another electric system, and it should be cheaper to run long term. Longevity of the heat pump will be a ? for all systems I'd imagine.

SirLanceAfew writes...

My Siddons has been running for 2 hours off peak at night

I am not disputing this at all but unless you are there watching it every night then how do you know this for sure? The runtime as you are aware will vary from night to night. As it has been stated here in the forum that each family will have different savings/runtime etc etc.

Also seems that the Siddons people have changed there specs or have several different models that they use (or have used) for their compressors as the latest brochure (late 08) states that it uses 1.4kw (1400 watts). But I have read other that it could be as low as 1080 or as high as 1630?

The thing I like about the Siddons is that it can recover far quicker than the Stiebel so for a large family it should suit but their are so many factors to consider.
cheers

350ztt writes...

I am not disputing this at all but unless you are there watching it every night then how do you know this for sure?

I can tell you it comes on at 11pm off peak, and I've heard it switch off numerous times whilst getting up for a middle of the night pee. I made a point of finding out how long it runs, as I'm a curious type of person :). PS, we have water saver shower heads, and dont use a real lot of hot water ( no long showers etc. ).

PPS, Had to put some soft rubber under the heat pump feet ( cut up a pair of old thongs ), to reduce an annoying resonance from the unit. This is not an uncommon problem with plenty of heat pumps.

Any opinions of the skyline energy unit besides the hefty price ?
http://www.skylineenergy.com.au/water_heaters_domestic_327-SS.php,
compared to siddons???

350ztt writes...

The thing I like about the Siddons is that it can recover far quicker than the Stiebel so for a large family it should suit but their are so many factors to consider.
cheers

You've raised some great points in your posts – certainly has me thinking about crunching the numbers to determine better what I should do.

It seems these systems are geared towards average sized families – mines not which is making the decisions harder.

I'm also finding I'm running up against salespeople who are happy to tell you their systems will cater for lots of people but when you hear feedback from people with the actual systems, you find a lot of the sales talk is BS.

pb006 writes...

Any opinions of the skyline energy unit besides the hefty price ?
http://www.skylineenergy.com.au/water_heaters_domestic_327-SS.php,
compared to siddons???

That is the Siddons. Obviously just bebadged under " Skyline energy".

SirLanceAfew writes...

That is the Siddons. Obviously just bebadged under " Skyline energy".

i thought they looked similar, thanks for that. wow hefty price????ahhhhh

SirLanceAfew writes...

Serious. My Siddons has been running for 2 hours off peak at nigh

I can believe that.
I turn my saxon 400l off at night because it keeps my daughter awake.
Turn it on again in the morning approx 10am and i know for a fact it does not
run any longer than 3hrs,there is enough hot water for me at that time to have a shower.
It sometimes kicks in again if somebody has a shower at around 4pm then only for 30-45min then off at 5pm (op2) and i switch the meter box off till tomorrow
Never have ran out of hot water yet with 2 adults and 2 teenage kids.
Very impressed

I want a heat pump like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yh_-DUKQ4Uw

im just about to order a heat pump hot water system. based on what ive read in this forum i am considering
1. siddons heat pump.
2. riebel heat pump
3. quantum heat pump or
4. the rheem

the dux one is not large enough for the house (holiday let with up to 6-8 adults at times). can anyone who actually owns any of these systems (or has experience with them) give me solid advice on best to go with.

lawrencef writes...

6-8 adults at times

If it were me I would go for the Siddons or the Stiebel Eltron with the backup element.
The Siddons has a fast recovery but the Stiebel (with backup) gives a 'safety' of 100 litres of quickly heated water if needed.

Pretty hard choice really and you need to work out how much water is drawn at a worst case scenario. Hate to have tenants complaining if the hot water runs out.

cheers

PS: I wouldn't touch any other brands currently available on the Aussie market.

I have the Rheem heat pump. The one with the heat pump on the bottom of the unit.

I have not got a bill yet so i cant tell u about savings.

But i can tell you that it is whisper quiet.

Cant hear it inside and can only just hear it if i am outside.

My only problem is = i have not received my rebate yet !

350ztt writes...

PS: I wouldn't touch any other brands currently available on the Aussie market.

Im with you on that statement,with all the dux heatpump issues i have.
/forum-replies.cfm?t=1222536

ok by what ive read ive narrowed down to the Siddons solarstream 327L or the Stielbel Eltron 303L with electric heating element backup. anyone got either of these and can give an opinion on which is best?? or at least pros and cons of each system? thx

lawrencef writes...

ok by what ive read ive narrowed down to the Siddons solarstream 327L or the Stielbel Eltron 303L with electric heating element backup. anyone got either of these and can give an opinion on which is best?? or at least pros and cons of each system? thx

I've just had the Steibel Eltron (no heating element) installed last Friday – purchased thru easybeinggreen. It was a fairly painless process and my outlay will be $499 after rebates.

I too considered the Siddons to be the superior system after much research and watching this thread for the past month but decided it was getting too complicated in that I would have to buy the system and then find a plumber with a refrigeration ticket to install it and then on-sell my RECs. (not to mention the initial purchase price of the system – $4000 +

Anyway, I went for my second choice being the Steibel Eltron, fully installed and they even took away my 15 year old Rheem HWS. My cash outlay to easybeinggreen has been only $2899 with $2400 in rebates to come back.

I am currently running on off-peak 1 which with Energy Australia means it can turn on anytime between 10pm and 7am and will run for 6 hours.

Unfortunately, in this weather (6 deg at night) 6 hours isn't enough for the tank to recover to 60 deg – but we are still getting 4 showers and a dishwasher-run out of it – just! The tank was installed with a tempering valve which is set to 50 deg – this means you get a larger volume of usable hot water than the capacity of the tank as the mixing valve adds cold water to the delivery side of the unit to bring the temperature down to 50 deg.
I have also noticed a reduction in the water pressure and I think it's because they have used ½" lines into and out of the tank and then stepped up to the ¾" copper in my house – I wish they would have left it all ¾" but it's only a minor drop.

I enquired about switching to off peak 2 – there is a 4 week wait due to the popularity of these heat pumps.

Bottom line – if you can afford and arrange it, get the Siddons with it's larger compressor (1.38kW versus 0.7kW), stainless tank and shorter recovery time, run it on OP1 and if insufficient, switch to OP2. I'm going to leave mine on OP1 as recovery times should improve as the weather warms up.

350ztt writes...

. There also is a pump that is made in NZ which would have been my pick but they still do not have any approvals here in Oz so no REC's. It was the most efficient and best performing by a small margin and the Stiebel was second.

Whats the brand/company name for this one?

Thanks

Mikemix writes...

Whats the brand/company name for this one?

Thanks

http://www.econergy.co.nz

Humbucker writes...

but decided it was getting too complicated in that I would have to buy the system and then find a plumber with a refrigeration ticket to install i

This is not a requirement, only a recommendation ( I contacted Siddons on this point ) My plumber and I connected it, no problems, easy as.

lawrencef writes...

ok by what ive read ive narrowed down to the Siddons solarstream 327L or the Stielbel Eltron 303L with electric heating element backup. anyone got either of these and can give an opinion on which is best?? or at least pros and cons of each system? thx

Read back a few pages. I'm very happy with the Siddons. Top quality, and only runs about 2 hours ( off peak ) to heat our family of 4's hot water.

Update – Installed Stieble Eltron 29th May 09. Federal Govt rebate $1600 came through 28th July. State Govt $800 rebate – still waiting.

The tank was installed in our double garage where the old tank was. At first it was a bit noisy as it runs at night on Off-Peak 1. But when I filled the garage up by parking both cars in it, the noise was considerably less. Not a sound engineer but I'm assuming the cars taking up space stops the sound waves bouncing around. I have still ordered a sound baffle from Stieble Eltron with the money I got from selling my old tank on ebay.

We are not big users of Hot Water (2 adults + 2 under 7) and we have been fine on Off-Peak 1. The tank does run most of the night. If it was installed outside in these winter temps I dare say we would be on Off-Peak 2.
If anyone has some figures on costs on off-peak 2 during the last 3 months (winter) that would be great. My Electricity bill just came and the Hot Water costs went from $32 (old tank) last quarter to $25 (heat pump for 60 of the 90 days). I never expected to save heaps and this was not my motivation (lower carbon footprint and rebates were my motivation). Moving into the warmer months now the saving should get better.

For anyone considering a new system I would have to say this

1. If you can afford it and have north facing roof (I have too many trees shading my roof) go with a traditional close-coupled (tank on the roof) solar HWS. A guru told me the best one is Rinnai Stainless Steel Tank with Copper Collector. Why do I say this – no noise, greener, no moving parts, Stainless tank should last you a very long time.
2. If you decide a Heat Pump is your choice you need to consider, your neighbours and your comfort (due to noise), if you can locate your tank (without too much extra cost) north side of house (not criticle but more efficient) and which tank to buy. Do not locate tank next to a bedroom.
3. If you have a large family you will most likely need off-peak 2 or domestic tariff which may increase your costs compared to old-style tank on Off-Peak 1.
If you are empty nesters and just have 2 showers a day and wash the dishes you should be fine to stay on the night time tariff as long as you position the tank so it does not annoy anyone.

4. Consider paying an Electrician to add a timer to your switchboard which stops the tank running in the night during winter so you can run it during the day in the higher temperatures. Some families will need it to run both at night and day otherwise they may not have hot water for morning showers.

Wrapping up – I am happy with my choice of Tank and am eagerly waiting for the weather to warm up to see how efficient it is in summer. I'm still considering Off-Peak 2 with a timer stopping the night time running. I'm pretty stingy so am waiting on one of you to tell me what effect this has had on your elect bill.

jd9degree writes...

Installed Stieble Eltron

We are not big users of Hot Water (2 adults + 2 under 7) and we have been fine on Off-Peak 1. The tank does run most of the night. If it was installed outside in these winter temps I dare say we would be on Off-Peak 2.

This is why I'd steer away from any hot water system that has the heat pump built into the tank unit. The heat pump just isnt large enough to be truly efficient, hence the long running times to heat water.

SirLanceAfew writes...

This is why I'd steer away from any hot water system that has the heat pump built into the tank unit. The heat pump just isnt large enough to be truly efficient, hence the long running times to heat water.

All well and good to have shorter recovery times but remember – Siddons compressors are made in China and as they have a remote compressor there is more of a chance of gas loss due to leaks plus potentially noisier operation due to the larger compressor motor and fan. (and they take up more space)
Steibel Eltron has 30 years of superior German technology and efficiency!
I have one of these and cannot hear it running from inside the house. Standing next to it – it sounds like a fridge on the condensor side and a small fan on the other side. (about half the decibels of my ducted air unit)

SirLanceAfew writes...

This is why I'd steer away from any hot water system that has the heat pump built into the tank unit. The heat pump just isnt large enough to be truly efficient, hence the long running times to heat water.

Your comments should be rethought or reworded as it doesn't have much to do with efficiency where the compressor is mounted. If anything the 'all-in-one' unit will have a shorter run for the compressed gas to travel so less heat loss. BTW, the Stiebel is more efficient than the Siddons (but it is not a contest anyway) when COP is compared.

Some of the other 'all-in-one' units have similar KW input as the Siddons as well but again it does not make them more or less efficient. The COP needs to be compared (apples for apples) to judge efficiency.

The two units that are mentioned are very very good at what they do and serve the requirements of hot water heating well IF it suits the particular families usage. The way in which they do it is what will ultimately make that family decide to buy either or go another brand.
cheers

I was considering the Steibel Eltron but it seems some people here are saying that the recovery time is much longer than the siddons – now I do realise that comments like that need to be weighed up against various factors, like location etc etc etc

I find it difficult to get honest advise from suppliers for my situation. I have 3 adults and 4 children to cater for – some say their units will cope with that (i.e. dux – whom I don't believe at all) and Steibel Eltron who say their unit will cope with up to eight people with the booster! I find this a tad bit too optimistic.

Siddons seems to come with a good reputation and having the unit compressor unit separate to the tank I don't think really makes much of a difference – after all, air con. units are all this design now (split and ducted).

The other thing that concerns me about the Steibel Eltron is that the compressor (or what-ever it's called) sits on top of the tank and it looks like the sacrificial anode cannot be replaced without removing the compressor – where-as the siddons doesn't need a sacrificial anode – does it matter? it does to me – my dux tank has just died after 9 years due to the tank being corroded – the service guy highly suspects the sacrificial anode has gone and reckons if you keep replacing them every 5 years you should not have any corrosion issues with your tank – this is a major drawback in my book of the Steibel Eltron.

I'm not trying to advocate one over the other – the Steibel Eltron comes with a hell of a lot of history behind it and expertise in the field, and the siddons is using the 'Australian made' design card to bolster it's position in the market.

I just want honest and accurate information on whether a heat pump really is going to suffice for my situation – minus all the bravado of salespeople attempting to just get a sale...

Anyone know how much it approximately costs to put in solar tubes? i hear Hills makes a great unti?

SirLanceAfew writes...

This is not a requirement, only a recommendation ( I contacted Siddons on this point ) My plumber and I connected it, no problems, easy as.

From the Siddons Installation Manual –

"A licensed plumber should install the Solarstream. It is the installers responsibility to comply with all AS/NZ Standards, Building
Codes and Trade Codes of Practice for complaint installations of domestic hot water heaters. In Australia, your plumber should
also hold a Restricted Split System Air Conditioning Installation and Decommissioning License (Certificate II course under the
Australian Refrigeration Council’s code RSS03) covering air conditioning and heat pump split systems."

Maveri writes...

The other thing that concerns me about the Steibel Eltron is that the compressor (or what-ever it's called) sits on top of the tank and it looks like the sacrificial anode cannot be replaced without removing the compressor

No. The anode IS replaceable on the Stiebel without removing the compressor. It was a requirement of mine as my last tank rusted out as we never replaced the anode.

link to drawings:

www.stiebel.com.au/admin/pages/PDF/188271766.pdf

350ztt writes...

No. The anode IS replaceable on the Stiebel without removing the compressor. It was a requirement of mine as my last tank rusted out as we never replaced the anode.

link to drawings:

www.stiebel.com.au/admin/pages/PDF/188271766.pdf

Excellent – thanks for this.

The only drawings I have seen are as the following – and they didn't show the unit as seen from the top like your one's did so I wrongly assumed it couldn't be replaced.

http://www.stiebel.com.au/heat-pumps/brochures.php

Namely: http://www.stiebel.com.au/admin/pages/PDF/578843942.pdf

The unit you linked to is an internal unit – I take it is the same as the external unit?

Maveri writes...

The unit you linked to is an internal unit – I take it is the same as the external unit?

yes same.
cheers

Humbucker writes...

From the Siddons Installation Manual -

Okay, I've spoken to them direct, and although it is recommended, it is not a requirement for the plumber to have such certificate ( try and find one that does ). Call them yourself if you dont believe me.

Humbucker writes...

Steibel Eltron has 30 years of superior German technology and efficiency

Well I'm glad I got the Siddons. I wouldn't swap it for a Steibel Eltron, but I'm glad you like it, and it's got to be 10 times better than say a Rheem/Dux etc.

SirLanceAfew writes...

Well I'm glad I got the Siddons. I wouldn't swap it for a Steibel Eltron, but I'm glad you like it, and it's got to be 10 times better than say a Rheem/Dux etc.

As I have said previously, I think the Siddons is the superior unit and is the one I would have choosen if it had been less complicated to arrange.

I think the spirited discussions on this thread can be distilled down to the fact there are two good units, the Siddons (faster recovery times but expensive) and the Steibel Eltron (more compact, good price and reliable) and then daylight with the possible exception of the Saxon unit which I had also considered but discounted due to its lower delivery pressure (it's not a mains pressure unit)

I hope reading the posts on this thread can help potential heat pump converts make an informed decision and not get sucked in by the marketing hype of the larger manufacturers.

I don't buy anything these days without fully researching on the net – Information is power!

Cheers!

Back in March about your Hot water setup

curto wrote...

"We have ours on a timer (although they do not recommend this) so that is only comes on in the lowest tarrif times – 10PM to 7AM."

"We have it hooked to an old 250 litre electric unit (that is not plugged in) and use a small circulating pump."

Could you outline clearly (I'm not tech savvy) how your heat pump heats the water in your old Off Peak tank ?

Also is the timer arrangement a sparky's job or a DIY product ?

Thanks for any light you can shed on this

I read in the Stiebel Eltron doc that operating temperatures must not go below 6 degrees C or above 42. Hmm that describes pretty much every winters night and every summers day where we live. Does anyone have any info regarding the operating temps for the Siddons?

mico68 writes...

I read in the Stiebel Eltron doc that operating temperatures must not go below 6 degrees C or above 42. Hmm that describes pretty much every winters night and every summers day where we live. Does anyone have any info regarding the operating temps for the Siddons?

Here are the correct application ranges for both of the Stiebels:

WWK300A (internal or external unit) application range is 0-42c

WWK300E (internal unit only) application range is 6-35c

350ztt writes...

Here are the correct application ranges for both of the Stiebels:

WWK300A (internal or external unit) application range is 0-42c

WWK300E (internal unit only) application range is 6-35c

Not only can the WWK300A operate from 0 degrees, but it has an automatic defrost function built in that will de-ice the evaporator coil if ice forms on the coil at temperatures below 6 deg.

Siddons -5 degrees to +45 degrees ambient, the widest operating range of available heat pumps.

Thanks so much for your info. I'm not really that keen on the whole heat pump idea but unfortunately solar panels are not practical without cutting down many trees and re-roofing the house.
It looks like the Siddons will be the best option (unless someone has good reason to talk me out of it of course.)

Which heat pump water heater is better, Siddons or Stiebel Eltron? How much is it to install each one in Sydney? Any installer recommendation?

Hi,
I have the Steibel Eltron 303L installed 6 weekes ago. Connected to OP2 and near the bedroom. Not happy with the noise level, specially in the middle of the night. It is on all night as we have shower late (3 adults) and only use the disk washer once a day (or less). I'd estimate it runs about 8 hours a day. The sale manager said it is nomal to run that long during winter (I am in Castle Hill, Sydney). Does anyone have it run for that long ?

I am getting the 'rabit ear' muffer (urgly as !) to reduce noise and is considering a timer to switch it off at night. I am not that satisfy with the whole heat pump solution at all. I wish I have insist to have gas pull into my house !!!

kh6565 writes...

I am getting the 'rabit ear' muffer (urgly as !) to reduce noise and is considering a timer to switch it off at night. I am not that satisfy with the whole heat pump solution at all. I wish I have insist to have gas pull into my house !!!

How far away is the system from your window?????

Unfortunately, it is just next to my bathroom window and is about 5 meters from my bed ! It is where the old heater is located, so it is a 'simple' replacement. Anyway. I just installed a 7-day programmable timer yesterday and it is exactly what I needed. It was off from 12:30 to 8 :30 AM and it just run for about three hours today (warm today).
BTW, My timer only cost $50 from ebay instead of the $220 the tradesman quote me !

kh6565 writes...

BTW, My timer only cost $50 from ebay instead of the $220 the tradesman quote me !

HOw do you install that timer?

The timer have 5 terminals. It is powered by continuous tariff, via one of the light switch (terminal 1 and 2) , the heater is on the N.C (normally close), from the hot water switch to terminal 3 and then terminal 4. Terminal 5 is not use as it is for N.O (normally open). The timer sits nicely next to the hot water switch in my meters enclosure box. It took me a couple of weeks to sort it all out. I think they should have a timer built in ... so much for clever Genrman technology ... :-(

Just have the sound baflle (rabbit ear) installed. It reduces the noise slightly, just down to a more acceptable level, specially the high pitch sound from the compressor. The timer also help to give me back my sleep. So far so good ... Will report back when my next electricity bill arrive.

Hi all

great thread this, just what I was looking for. Due to the narrow gap in which I
can install a heat pump, the Siddons looks good as it is quite narrow and the split
unit allows me more flexibility. It also looks to be good quality.

Does anyone know of any installers around Sydney's Northern Beaches ?

Many thanks

Neil

It shouldn't be too hard to find a installer in Sydney ... I think SirLanceAfew has the Siddons according to the post here. The STIEBEL ELTRON costs me $400 for the simple replacement at the same spot. Good luck.

kh6565 writes...

Just have the sound baflle (rabbit ear) installed.

Do you have a pic?

Go to www.parex.co.nz .... or here--> http://www.parex.co.nz/?s1=stiebel%20eltron and concetrate on the pictures on the left ... :-)

Sorry... the picture is in this pdf file : http://www.parex.co.nz/pdfs/steibeleltron/STIEBEL_HEAT_PUMP.pdf

kh6565 writes...

Sorry... the picture is in this pdf file : http://www.parex.co.nz/pdfs/steibeleltron/STIEBEL_HEAT_PUMP.pdf

Ahh, thanks. How much did you get that installed?

Nimon writes...

"We have ours on a timer (although they do not recommend this) so that is only comes on in the lowest tarrif times – 10PM to 7AM."

For a heat pump that can actually end up less efficient, since during that latenight period the air is colder so it has to work harder and possibly defrost constantly.
Will depend on your climate, but worth taking into account.

Of course for normal electric element heating its fine.

Well, first one is for free as I complain bitterly about the noise level ... and I only have one installed on the compressor side. The second one will cost $165 and you can order it and can install it yourself (or plus $80 if installed by them). Mine is about 10-15% quieter, but the annoying pitch is not so bad now from inside the house. The Parex's document claims 10 dB reduction ... may be posssible with two of them installed.
Does anyone have two of the rabbit ears installed ? How effective ?

kh6565 writes...

Well, first one is for free as I complain bitterly about the noise level ... and I only have one installed on the compressor side.

Who did your installation?

kh6565 writes...

but the annoying pitch is not so bad now from inside the house

Could it be faulty? Bad ball berrings?

Stiebel Eltron sends him... just a regular plumber. Didn't do a complete job as I discovered after he left (I wasn't home). One of the nut was not used, on the left side, close to the wall. He said something ... blah ... very difficult to tighten ... blah ... I will have to try it myself this w/e ... :-(

doesnt appear as though anyone has mentioned; garrett has reduced the rebate on heat pump hws from $1600 to $1000 apparently to reflect the cheaper cost of units compared with solar hws.

have just had one of these installed in a new house, i thought it was just normal for it to be setup on an offpeak tariff, but it's just the 1 standard meter in the meterbox.

i'm trying to work out if it would be worth, whatever the cost would be to have it changed to an offpeak only. from my understanding i'm thinking it would actually heat quicker during the day, more hot air around to absorb, so less for the compressor to actually run, compared to at night when the air is colder, especialy during winter. if this is so, then the cost of it being made offpeak, plus it running longer during the night, rather then during the day. makes it not even worth bothing to do????

subwars writes...

have just had one of these installed in a new house

Do you get any rebate? How much do you have to pay out of pocket?

ca6leguy writes...

o you get any rebate? How much do you have to pay out of pocket?

as far as i was aware all the rebates ect where built into the pricing... the standard was a gas hot water system, but we upgraded it to the heatpump was $750 extra.. absolutly hate gas hot water, temperature is so up and down, and costs a fortune in bottles

Assailant writes...

doesnt appear as though anyone has mentioned; garrett has reduced the rebate on heat pump hws from $1600 to $1000 apparently to reflect the cheaper cost of units compared with solar hws.

Had my rebate forms in for a few weeks now
wonder if i get $1600 or $1000

benn writes...

Had my rebate forms in for a few weeks now

wonder if i get $1600 or $1000

It's based on when you install your HWS not when you hand in your forms.

ca6leguy writes...

It's based on when you install your HWS not when you hand in your forms.

benn writes...

Had my rebate forms in for a few weeks now

wonder if i get $1600 or $1000

It's based on when you install your HWS not when you hand in your forms.

Cool so i installed 13/7/09 sent forms of a few days later
and i should get $1600 back

Just planing the money, $600 gap is a bugger but im cool
wonder how that will affect sales now

benn writes...

wonder how that will affect sales now

can only make it go one way..

Looking into heat pumps at the moment, what are the recommendations for the best one to go for?

Family of two to begin with, will slowly be increasing over time so shouldn't need a huge tank. Efficiency is important, as is heat. We both like the showers quite hot. Also, i've heard heat pumps are quite noisy, but the manufacturers seem to be claiming they are quiet now....

I was recommended the dux systems by the builder – are they good?

deeps writes...

Also, i've heard heat pumps are quite noisy, but the manufacturers seem to be claiming they are quiet now....

Well you have head right,they are noisy (especially at night)
but depending where your system is could be ok,
mine is near kids bedrooms and is annoying

I have a Saxon 400L model and is very happy with it
at first it was noisy (on op2) when coming on at 22:30-23:00

So turned it of at meter box till morning prob fixed (getting timer soon)
and everybody is happy,plenty of hot water for showers and washups
that's with 2 adults and 2 teenage kids

Update – $800 from NSW State Govt arrived today. So thats $2400 total rebates.
Stieble Eltron WWK300A cost me $2700 and I sold my old HWS for $110. Now hoping for smooth sailing for a few years (15 would be good). My pump was installed 29.05.2009.

jd9degree writes...

Update – $800 from NSW State Govt arrived today. So thats $2400 total rebates.

Stieble Eltron WWK300A cost me $2700 and I sold my old HWS for $110. Now hoping for smooth sailing for a few years (15 would be good). My pump was installed 29.05.2009.

It took you 3 months to get your rebate? That's slack on the gov part. They are called public servants for a reason.

Subwars says. I only have one meter in my new house. Should I add an off-peak meter.

You might find that your meter is a smart meter which gives you Peak Shoulder and Off-Peak depending on the time of day.
If you find the tank running at unsuitable times (Peak or at night) you can add a timer to make sure it only runs during the day before the Peak Tariff starts.
It will run after someone showers so it has the potential to run at any time. You would not need an off-peak meter if you already have a smart meter, just add a timer.

cableguy says
It took you 3 months to get your rebate? That's slack on the gov part. They are called public servants for a reason.

I kind of expected it would take a while. To make it worse neither Fed or State Govts gave any indication that they had recieved my application. So you mail it and wait, and wait.

I'm still happy with the Quantum I had installed over a year ago now....

taslos writes...

I'm still happy with the Quantum I had installed over a year ago now....

How much savings have you noticed since you installed it?

Im not happy with my dux heatpump!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

pb006 writes...

Im not happy with my dux heatpump!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why? Spoke to a few installers who installs only Dux heat pump. Told them I heard a few customers who are not happy with the Dux. He said never heard anyone complaining. He said Dux is really good. Was going to charge $800 installed after rebate.

Im not happy with my dux heatpump!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I also have one.
It has been running fine for almost 1 year.

The only issue that I can think about is that it is NOT a true "Quick Recovery" system. It is a SLOW recovery system.
Especially in winter, if one should happen to use ALL the hot water, it can take 5 to 6 hours to get hot again.
It performs something between a quick recovery and an off peak system in its heating capacity.

With just the wife and myself, it is perfect.

Now with the older daughter also at home with her 2 small children, and the habit of her taking 3 long showers every day, and the children having 2 showers each every day, there are times that the system can struggle.

With the old quick recovery water system one could drain out all the hot water and within one hour it was hot again.

sydbod writes...

I also have one.

It has been running fine for almost 1 year.

heres an update to the dux saga
cannot give you a true 250l of hot water,noisy fan ,3 units changed over in 4 months with 12 service calls and still only 110l of hotwater.

Overall: I believe Dux is fudging the figures in design,3 units all the same . Will not deice:installed on a tuesday,by friday afternoon 3.00pm the unit had not stopped running since tuesday and had ice growth of 25mm. Hotwater was luke warm and the compressor was icing up(turning white with ice) Discharge temp from compressor was below 30 degrees. The amount of electricity being consummed with no hotwater is astronomical. would highly advise all consumers to do a 250l dump test on there system and complain to dux.There should be an audit into the airoheat system by the state and fed govt as they are paying the rebates.You can only claim the rebate once and im stuffed now,will have to go to fair trading. Go for the solar boosted option if you get the oportunity . There are other brands out there that work perfectly as a heat pump unit,between rheem and dux i would stay away from these two .

ca6leguy writes...

How much savings have you noticed since you installed it?

Hard to say – as in Tassie you can merge your fixed wire heating (split system air-con, panel heaters etc) onto the same tarriff.

But overall I'd say there are savings as power prices have gone up a fair bit (I'd guess ~10%) and the overall usage is even — but the wife is now home all day everyday with baby compared to being at work full-time last year.

And hot water usage is up too – more washing, some needing warm or hot, another little critter to bath, more washing up, etc

pb006 writes...

heres an update to the dux saga
cannot give you a true 250l of hot water,noisy fan ,3 units changed over in 4 months with 12 service calls and still only 110l of hotwater.

You are having problems.
There should be a anti scalding mixer at the side of the unit that mixes cold water with the hot water from the heater, to bring the temperature of the hot water into the house to around 50Deg C.
As the heatpump heats the water to around 70Deg C, one should get a hot water dump of well over 300L.
When I compare the amount of usage of the new system with the old quick recovery 250L unit that we had, this new one does seam to provide a bit more hot water before going cold. (had the thermostat of the old quick recovery system turned down to 50Deg C also).

Our Dux was one of the very first ones that were installed. Maybe quality has collapsed in the meantime.

sydbod writes...

You are having problems.

There should be a anti scalding mixer at the side of the unit that mixes cold water with the hot water from the heater, to bring the temperature of the hot water into the house to around 50Deg C.

No it doesnt have an anti scalding mixer.The dux heatpump heats to a maximum of 60 degrees.sensor is located approx ½ way down the tank,hence the 140 litre of hotwater.

I assume we are talking of the same "dux airoheat" hot water system (250L capacity). It looks like a Darlek from "Doctor Who".

My one (an early generation) has a mechanical thermostat under a metal flap at the bottom of the unit. Under the same flap that is opened to connect the power wires.
The black mechanical thermostat has a small AQUA colored disk that has markings from 50,60,70,80. My one is set to 70 (70Deg C).

As I said, this mechanical thermostat is very near the bottom of the tank, and therefor it controls the full tank temperature and not just half the tank temperature.

Is your one actually physically different to my one?

sydbod writes...

Is your one actually physically different to my one?

No mine is the same as yours.
The SAFETY THERMOSTAT is set to 70 degrees ,the unit works independantly of the SAFETY THERMOSTAT.This thermostat is a safety only and it does nothing at all in its normal operation of 60 degrees at a 140 litres.
ITS A FAILSAFE SAFETY ONLY AND NOT AN OPERATIONAL PART OF DELIVERYING HOT WATER.
Join the cue that have ripped of by dux .
140 litre max out of a 250litre tank.
Do the test yourself and I bet you feel you have been conned and cheated........
Ring dux and they will say it will deliver 250l of hotwater.
Problem is that everyone has rolled over to dux's bull..
Do a dump test and let me know if you got anywherte nere 250litres of hotwater....
You have been conned as i have but I will speak out and go all the way to the ACCC unless they get bullshited by another conmergent.
Im a fridgey and doing the calcs duxs is bases is on cold temps and no humidty,but no matter what they calculate they cant get past the 60% capacity of hotwater....
Notice dux has changed there brochure this month saying about spa baths and the number of persons in a household...
They bullcrapped to get the design awards and no gov dumbass has chalenged there results!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
go to heat pump hotwater systems 2

How do you feel !!!!

sydbod writes...

My one (an early generation) has a mechanical thermostat under a metal flap at the bottom of the unit. Under the same flap that is opened to connect the power wires.

The black mechanical thermostat has a small AQUA colored disk that has markings from 50,60,70,80. My one is set to 70 (70Deg C).

you can go here if you want
/forum-replies.cfm?t=1222536

pb006 writes...

How do you feel !!!!

Some installers seems to believe Dux is the best. They said they have never heard of any customer complains. You may be the only one having problems with it. Maybe rather than dump testing all the time, you should use it for showering? ie. mix with cold water. The spec says it is able to deliver 250L of hot water. Maybe what it means is 250L of hot water mix with cold to useable temperature?

ca6leguy writes...

Some installers seems to believe Dux is the best. They said they have never heard of any customer complains. You may be the only one having problems with it. Maybe rather than dump testing all the time, you should use it for showering? ie. mix with cold water. The spec says it is able to deliver 250L of hot water. Maybe what it means is 250L of hot water mix with cold to useable temperature?

What did you pay for a system that can only produce 110 to 140 litres.Or 250 liters...
GOD MAN I BET IF YOU BOUGHT A BAR OF CHOCOLATE THAT SAID 1 KG and it only had 650 GRAMS 'I BET YOU WOULD BE RUNNING TO THE ACCC.
HAVE THE BALLS and do the dump test and see how your being ripped of unless you work for DUX....

pb006 writes...

Do a dump test and let me know if you got anywherte nere 250litres of hotwater....

I now see what you are talking about.

I will do the dump test on the weekend and see the results.

What worries me is that there are no test specifications given on the brochure that describes how any tests are to be done. I still have the original brochures and books for my system.
What worries me is that if one has the thermostat in the middle of the tank and one is prepared to wait for a good 24hrs or more then the heat will eventually work downwards and warm the bottom half of the tank.

By doing what they have done, it guarantees that the top half of the water will heat up at twice the rate (apparent faster recovery), but the whole tank will take more than twice as long to heat up.
It looks like people may have been misled. The problem is that it is not a clear open and shut case.

What worries me more is the observation of your system icing up. I have not noticed this on my system, but that does no mean that it can not happen on my system. Sydney winters have been relatively mild over the last few years, and maybe that explains why my system appears not to ice up. As you say, YES the deicing circuitry should be working.
After reading the brocures again I now get the impression that there is no actual deicing circuitry on the system as such. It now implies that the deicing feature is just the stopping of the heatpump running when the temperatures get too cold.

If one really looks at these heatpump hot water systems, one can see it is a real con.
The tank should cost about $800 and the heatpump is only a very small airconditioner so it should cost maybe $400 max.
I just don't know where these thousands of dollars price ranges come from for those units.
Hopefully when these government bonuses stop, then the prices will come down to a proper value.

How do you feel !!!!
HMMM!!!!! I feel like a Tooheys or two!

sydbod writes...

I now see what you are talking about.

You got it, am willing to see the dump test you will doo,shhhhhhh dont tell dux as it might reveal the truths when you do the 250lit dump test!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What brand/make is the Dux heat pump?

ca6leguy writes...

What brand/make is the Dux heat pump?

trick question? is it a Dux by any chance?

sydbod writes...

What worries me more is the observation of your system icing up. I have not noticed this on my system, but that does no mean that it can not happen on my system. Sydney winters have been relatively mild over the last few years, and maybe that explains why my system appears not to ice up. As you say, YES the deicing circuitry should be working.

Don't seem to have that issue with the Quantum.... and I'm in Tassie, so winter where I am is abive 0 degrees, and no frosts, but hot water doesn't seem to be an issue (nor do the Daikin splits go into deice from what I have noticed), also due to our hillside location..... the real cold runs off to the bottom of the hill on either side.....

Also – the Quantum has the confidence not to include or need a booster element, they ONLY have the heat pump system.

Assailant writes...

trick question? is it a Dux by any chance?

LOL, I was asking about the compressor. Surely, it's not made by Dux. The Stiebel Eltron is made by Mitsubishi, Japan.

Here is my dump test on the DUX hot water service.(Done midnight between Saturday and Sunday)

I calibrated an old chlorine bucket and marked it at the 10L point.(about 95% towards top). A 1L container was used to do the calibration, so the mark was fairly accurate. The heat pump was not running so the temperature was at full temperature as far as the heating system was concerned

Half way through the 26th bucket (about 255L) the water temperature went cold.

The provisos:
My system has an anti scalding device that drops the tank temperature from 60deg C down to 50 deg C so it is mixing around 20% cold water to the hot tank water before entering the house.
This makes the actual hot water content from the tank at around the 200L mark before it went cold.
As it was a low water usage day because the daughter and her 2 children were away from the house, one would expect the water tank to provide near full capacity of hot water, even if the thermostat is in the middle of the tank.

As can be seen from my results, I did get much better than your 140L value, but I was also way short of the 250L mark.

As you say, the thermostat is in the middle of the tank.
With a full tank of cold water and one were to let the system heat up, then at around the 130L point the thermostat will get hot and turn the heating off. If one does a dump measure at that instant, then one will only get about 130L of hot water.

With a full tank of cold water and one were to let the system run for a few days then the following would happen.
The system would run until about half the tank heats up and the thermostat turns the heating off. Slowly the heat will conduct downwards towards into the bottom of the tank. As this heat conducts downwards, the top gets cooler and switches the heating on again until the top half is at full temperature. More heat slowly conducts downwards and again this cycle continues. This cycle will be very slow and it may take a good 2 or 3 days before the full tank of water gets to the required 60deg C point.

I totally agree that the average person would normally expect to get 250L of hot water available at the time that the thermostat trips out the heating and says the temperature has been reached. If a family required the full 250L hot water capacity end consistantly used large volumes of water, then they would keep hitting this barrier at around 150L marker, and this hot water system would be NOT a good choice.

As there was no testing methology stated for the DUX system, there is no clear cut case of proving that the specifications are misleading. The system CAN provide 250L of hot water, just not in a practical time frame, that is all.

I guess it is the recommendation of suitability for number of people that is the relevant measure for classifying this system, rather than its 250L capacity.

Recently had the plumbers out as part of a solar HWS install and i queried them as to their thoughts on heat pump's in general.
One of the Plumbers is of Irish nationality in Oz working for a while. Basically his opinion is that Heat pumps as a technology are very good, when done properly. Apparently they are extremely prevalent in parts of Europe but the difference is that they HAVE to be more efficient over there due to the different climate. Most of the units over there are apparently of German origin and build and he says they are better than much of the equipment used in our local equipment, much of which is of chinese manufactured parts.

Personally I prefer solar over heat pumps as introducing something with MORE moving parts is not likely to be conducive to longer reliability, let alone the extra noise produced.

The only thing i HATE about the solar system is not really a fault of the solar system itself ( and would apply to heat pump as well), it's the fact that the plumbing had to be modified to that of whatever the current standards are, specifically the Pressure reducing valve and Temperature mixer, which serve only to annoy me.

And Before anyone jumps to their defence, i know they can be useful in preventing kids from burning their hands etc etc but all they achieve for me is giving me colder hot water that takes longer to get out of that tap..

There are many reasons some people go for heat pump and some go for solar.

My choice for heat pump rather than solar was fairly simple. In 20 years time, I can swap over the old heat pump with a new one. I can not do that with a solar system as all the fittings and sizes will probably be different and will require too much mucking around on the roof (2 story house).

sydbod writes...

I can not do that with a solar system as all the fittings and sizes will probably be different and will require too much mucking around on the roof (2 story house).

I don't like tradies jumping on my roof and breaking my tiles and don't tell me. When the roof starts to leak, more money out of the pocket of the owner.

taslos writes...

Don't seem to have that issue with the Quantum.... and I'm in Tassie, so winter where I am is abive 0 degrees, and no frosts, but hot water doesn't seem to be an issue (nor do the Daikin splits go into deice from what I have noticed), also due to our hillside location..... the real cold runs off to the bottom of the hill on either side.....

Also – the Quantum has the confidence not to include or need a booster element, they ONLY have the heat pump system.

Not much discussion here about Quantum units.

I've just had the 270L version installed. I was worried about noise, hot water pressure and various issues in general mentioned here.

Compared to my 25 year old in roof electric storage system, all I can say is WOW! Hot water doesn't seem to want to run out (two people), and comes out at far greater pressure than my old gravity fed system.

It's located outside on the Northern side between two adjacent rooms – the toilet and bathroom. Hot water seems to come out almost instantly in the shower (guess because the unit is so close). Even in the dead of night where its very quiet here (Adelaide Hills), I can't hear the unit in any room (no, I'm not deaf!) except the toilet if it has the window open (heat pump is right next to it). Sometimes I think it is just the wind. I never seem to be able to catch it running, unless I dump hot water or take a shower.

I'm going to check meter readings for a few weeks to see what the off peak power consumption is, so that I have something to compare to my old system. I did have a 'day/night' switch installed, so can run the thing during the day if needed – but don't expect to need it, it's there for peace of mind.

So the combination of unit, plumbers/electricians and location certainly seemed to work well for me! But ask me again in five years time :).

Raydragon writes...

The only thing i HATE about the solar system is not really a fault of the solar system itself ( and would apply to heat pump as well), it's the fact that the plumbing had to be modified to that of whatever the current standards are, specifically the Pressure reducing valve and Temperature mixer, which serve only to annoy me.

And Before anyone jumps to their defence, i know they can be useful in preventing kids from burning their hands etc etc but all they achieve for me is giving me colder hot water that takes longer to get out of that tap..

Don't get me started on those things please!

I have a temprature limiter on my shower mixer (grohe) so I don't need to regulate the temperature there and the pipe run across my house from the hot water inlet to the kitchen sink is so long (and unlagged due to stupid builders and it cannot be accessed to lag it either) that by the time the hot water reaches the kitchen sink it's luke warm anyhow.

A temperature limiter will just mean I get cold water at my kitchen outlet.

I managed to get my hot water system installed before the regulation changes happened – this time around I will not be so lucky.

Can you modify the temperature limiters? Yes, I know it's against regulations – that's not what I'm asking about – can they be modified after they are installed

Maveri writes...

Can you modify the temperature limiters? Yes, I know it's against regulations – that's not what I'm asking about – can they be modified after they are installed

Yes you can ,just remove them.thats the only way.Stuff the bulls##t regulations as its for parents that are to lazy to watch there children.No child would be hurt if parents were not to lazy to watch their chidren instead of yapping on phones or watching oprah on the TV whilst having coffees with friends whilst there chidren run amock.Sorry about the grammer but that is how the regulations came about for 50 degree hotwater.The lazy slackers that dont watch there kids and we have to suffer for there laziness...
Again apologise on the grammer and spelling!!!!!!
AGAIN WHAT I SAID IS POLITICALLY INCORRECT

Maveri writes...

Can you modify the temperature limiters? Yes, I know it's against regulations – that's not what I'm asking about – can they be modified after they are installed

ill try to answer your question as briefly as possible, without dribbling crap:

yes.

all thermo mixing valves are adjustable... generally up to a maximum of about 65 i think.

but id pull it out, they cause more problems than they solve imo (especially when flow/pressure switched devices are concerned)

pb006 writes...

Yes you can ,just remove them.thats the only way.Stuff the bulls##t regulations as its for parents that are to lazy to watch there children.No child would be hurt if parents were not to lazy to watch their chidren instead of yapping on phones or watching oprah on the TV whilst having coffees with friends whilst there chidren run amock

I agree – although I do have 4 kids :-)

We have NEVER had an incident with hot water scolding because we watch our children.

It's true – they do get into things and you cannot watch them all the time especially when a major distraction happens but you can do certain things when it comes to hot water.

1. When running a bath, make sure the bathroom door is closed (or locked if possible)
2. Run the bath so that it fills luke warm – then add the hot while you stand there. It takes like 2 mins to bring the bath up to temperature at that point by adding hot and you don't have to worry about them getting burnt because your'e there.

Other safety aspects are that young children should never be left unattended in the bath at any time. We never have but I know of other who have – it makes me cringe! One person who did was in fact a baby sitter! ahhh – you would think they know better?. If the phone rings we let it ring. Otherwise, we have already taken the phone with us to the bathroom and will answer it there.
We have always followed these simple rules and never had an incident of any of our kids becoming burnt. When one parent has to leave the bathroom we will only do that when the other has taken over the overseeing duty – no exceptions.

I'm tired of regulations addressed to the lowest common denominator that then inconveniences all.

I'll just remove the temp. limiter then when I get my hot water replaced. – Thanks all for the feedback on this.

Now all I need to do is find an installer.

What happens with the recs points? Does the installer buy them? I had a contact for a good plumber but he wasn't interested in the recs? What happens there – does that mean you can't claim them?

Siddons is going strong. First full quarter power for hot water was around $15 ( family of 4 ).

How much are people getting charged after rebates for getting these things installed?

I just got a quote from easy being green and the change over cost quoted was: $1,599.00 (after rebates applied)

It's for the Stiebel Eltron WWK 300A (which I assume is the one with the booster element as that's what i asked for a quote on).

At that rate, how long before the unit really pays for itself then?

EDIT:

yikes! I got them to clarify the system – the element fitted system will set me back $1800 – that seems very expensive to me...

Maveri writes...

How much are people getting charged after rebates for getting these things installed?

I paid $900 installed after rebates for the 327 litre Siddons.

At that rate, how long before the unit really pays for itself then?

I needed a new hot water system, so didn't look at it that way. But by my reckoning, I save around $40 a quarter off peak power, so probably about 5. something years. not bad for a stainless tanked system, the tank should last 20 years at least, maybe a new heat exchanger some way down the track.

SirLanceAfew writes...

I needed a new hot water system, so didn't look at it that way. But by my reckoning, I save around $40 a quarter off peak power, so probably about 5. something years. not bad for a stainless tanked system, the tank should last 20 years at least, maybe a new heat exchanger some way down the track.

So do I but in my case, my old tank is under warranty.

I'm beginning to think that may I should just get a normal tank installed ($189 total cost for installation) and be done with it.

I might revisit the whole energy efficient HW systems when the tank dies again in 10 years time.

$189 versus $1800 and years to make up the difference. Hmmmmmm

MTCW. got the Dux Airoheat Subzero 3 months ago.
Nothing new... it's noisy. It consumes _marginally_ less power, but as the power is all PEAK power (i.e. 2-3 times the price off OFF PEAK) my quarterly bill has gone from $300 to $500+ for a house of 4 (2 + 2 kids).

Theoretically, it's better for the environment (yawn) by a little bit, but at a huge cost to my pocket.. about $1K per year more than the old EVIL hot water storage tank.

I reckon this may be another "looks good in the ads" type deal. I mean.. it DOES use less power, but sheesh, it has to be on during the day, coz that's when it works best with higher ambient air temps. At night when power is cheap as dirt, the heat pump, he be sleeping.

Great idea guys.. on paper :-(

RichR writes...

Great idea guys.. on paper :-(

I'm thinking this way too actually.

Also, just like the first home buyers grant has pushed up the price of houses, I think all these rebates have done the same thing too on energy efficient water heating.

In 10 years time when the rebates are nothing but a distant memory and my replacement tank has died, then maybe the heat pumps might be worth getting then.

It would be a different story if I was buying a replacement tank outright but the fact that it's a warranty replacement and I'm only paying for the labor to install – I don't see getting a heat pump as really being worth it.

At some point in time I want to put in solar panels anyhow – that will at least help with the electricity bill of the hot water anyhow – meh – I think I will pass on the heat pumps for now...

Maveri writes...

just like the first home buyers grant has pushed up the price of houses, I think all these rebates have done the same thing too on energy efficient water heating.

At some point in time I want to put in solar panels

solar panels are one of the worst gimmicks

RichR writes...

my quarterly bill has gone from $300 to $500+ for a house of 4 (2 + 2 kids).

make sure you write to Peter n Penny and thank them for all theu have done for you and for all the more they are gonna do for you in the future!

RichR writes...

Great idea guys.. on paper :-(

I think the problem is, there is only a couple of companies that make an "Efficient" heat pump system, the Siddons I bought being one of them, if not the most efficient. It is designed to run off peak, and only ticks over for about 2 hours each night to supply our family of four. It's pretty quiet as well, but you wouldn't put it next to a bedroom window.
People dont know about such systems though, and get lured by the crap systems sold by the big brand companies ( Rheem, Dux etc.).

I got a rheem and it works well. Certainly runs for more than two hours a night though. It runs between 11pm-7am and in really cold weather. I have run out of water before but only once or twice.

aza123 writes...

I have run out of water before but only once or twice.

How many times had you run out when you were using the old of peak system?
You can look forward to running out more often to as the 100,000s of thousands cities change over to these heaters of which 90% heat during daytime hours @ peak rates and the power station will be overloaded hence you will face many blackouts. In the meantime the power stations will generate through the night with a significantly lower demand..cant be idled down at a moments notice maybe that why the govt is hpoing we will all do our washing at midnight! If there are models that are efficient during night hours thats what needs to be installed.....but...then noise may become an issue....

Besides the blackouts you will face the pain of $$$$$ and replacement time. No subsidy then you will be up for at least $4000 7--9 years down the road..sooner if you have a lemon!

Well you will be able to look back and thank Penny Peter n Kevin...they will be out by then but sucking up a big penison from yours and my purse!
We'd be better of sinking our tax dollars into improving the emissions at the power station but this lot and the alternate have not got the abilty to think logically about these issues.

LemMotlow writes...

Well you will be able to look back and thank Penny Peter n Kevin

Yep, Gotta agree. They haven't thought this one out really well, surprise, surprise.

I only started looking at this forum the past couple of days.
It doesn't surprise me that there is substantial proof here of people illegally installing refrigeration pipework. Many in the refrigeration trade have been aware of it happening for quite a while now, and are lobbying the Dept of Environment to start enforcing the relevant legislation.
Just think how thrilled those who got the required qualification(s) and paid their licence fee feel when there are plumbers and members of the public doing unlicensed work. Work licensed persons paid for the privilege of performing legally.

These parts of the 'Ozone Protection and Synthetic Greenhouse Gas Management Regulations 1995', Feb 2009 edition, should be of interest to those telling people here that the requirement for a refrigerant handling licence is merely a "recommendation".

101. Offence — handling refrigerant
(1) A person commits an offence if the person handles a refrigerant
and the person is not:
(a) both:
(i) the holder of a refrigerant handling licence; and
(ii) entitled under the licence to handle the refrigerant in
the way in which it was handled;

(2) For subregulation (1), handle a refrigerant means doing
anything with the refrigerant, or a component of RAC
equipment, that carries the risk of refrigerant being emitted,
including:
(a) decanting the refrigerant; or
(b) manufacturing, installing, commissioning, servicing or
maintaining RAC equipment, irrespective of whether or
not refrigerant is present; or
© decommissioning RAC equipment where refrigerant is
present.
(3) An offence against subregulation (1) is an offence of strict
liability.

So, I would be making sure that anyone installing a heat pump system which requires connection of the refrigerant system to ensure their installer has all the relevant licenses, from both a legal and warranty standpoint.
There is plenty of relevant information on the Arctick website: http://arctick.org
Fact sheets and links to the legislation and regulations.

Dont Know how you came to that conclusion
but im sure 100% of people here
went through a licensed installer
thats how we got our rebates

fridgie writes...

You dont need any tools to deal with the refrigerant side of things. The system is pre charged, with two couplings that need to be screwed together. Simple.

whats this about? the ones ive seen are a packaged unit – no fridgie work required... (which disappoints me, would be money for jam work hooking those up if an arctick licensed installer was required)

fridgie writes...

I only started looking at this forum the past couple of days.
It doesn't surprise me that there is substantial proof here of people illegally installing refrigeration pipework

Welcome to Whirlpool. What seems to be your problem ? So my Plumber and I connected two "pre charged" refrigerant lines on the Siddons heat pump system. I could teach my 10 year old to do the same thing in about 30 seconds. Anyway, Siddons said it was only a recommendation to have a qualified "Fridgie" do the connection, and my warranty would not be voided because I chose not to have it done this way.
I do tradies work around the house all the time, even though I'm not qualified. I change light bulbs, fix leaking taps and even change the oil in my car.
Your crap doesn't scare me, and my system runs fine, ( and you Fridgies charge too much ).
Are you upset that a manufacturer has come up with a clever design (one shot pre charged couplings ), that may take work away from you ?

So, do you have any feedback on heatpump hot water systems, that's what this thread is about. ?

fridgie writes...

I only started looking at this forum the past couple of days.
It doesn't surprise me that there is substantial proof here of people illegally installing refrigeration pipework. Many in the refrigeration trade have been aware of it happening for quite a while now, and are lobbying the Dept of Environment to start enforcing the relevant legislation.

You may know your industry but you obviously know sfa about the legal industry – there will no prosecution over comments posted in a public forum as they don't constitute any sort of proof to even begin an investigation.

Your crying because someone developed a device that tackles what the law was introduced to do – welcome to technology mate – it happens all the time in the computing industry, that is, technology eventually deals with limitations.

The more greedy industry groups attempt to sew up a market through rules, the more you create a market for a technological solution.

None of this stuff is rocket science at all, especially when a manufacturer has created a system that addresses the short-falls of systems before it.

In the UK electrical wiring of simple socket replacements etc has been legalized and before long that will happen here too.

Technology doesn't stand still and in an age where physical harm could come to the installer of a device, companies spend money on making it simpler and less error prone as time goes on – welcome to the future – there will be more of the same going forward.

People do not have the money to keep getting in 'experts' time and time again – that style of living went with the economic crash – it's back to frugal living and that means doing things more yourself – now just watch manufacturers on mass keep re-creating their goods for end user install. Cry all you want but this is the future.

Well said Maveri :D

SirLanceAfew writes...

Well said Maveri :D

Thanks – I wasn't personally having a go at the guy but it really gets up my nose when I see people trying to scaremonger others. The world changes and technology marches forward.

I was reading some UK forums about electrical installation and the attitude over there is totally different. instead of trying to protect their industry, the electricians get on the forums and answer people's questions – often resulting in people saying "well, I got some other work to do – would you be interested in a job".
Instead, here we have people trying to stop others all the time to protect their turf.
Eventually, protecting your turf results in your demise as it just drives up costs.

I do work around my home as well because it saves money and I research stuff before I start. I did electrical wiring many years ago so I have an idea of what's involved – naturally I wouldn't do it myself though ;-)
My sparky mate always says "You know how to do this" to which I reply "Yep, but I was unsure and when I'm unsure, I don't do it".

People are not stupid and instead of trying to shut people down we should be educating people – he'll, if someone points out the tips and tricks of an install to me it would help me assess my ability to do it myself or call in help – but the stupid attitude of threatening people with legal ramifications doesn't do anything.

So your Siddons unit is good? My HW died completely on the weekend – a cold shower this morning didn't do me any wonders except I did cut down on my water usage...

Maveri writes...

So your Siddons unit is good? My HW died completely on the weekend – a cold shower this morning didn't do me any wonders except I did cut down on my water usage...

Very happy with it thanks. It actually saves money compared to my old off peak electric heater, a thing which plenty of other heatpumps claim to do, but often dont deliver. I'm happy to recommend it to others, which is why I've posted quite a few times on this thread. It's from a smaller Aussie company who dont have the advertising clout of the big names, so word of mouth from happy customers is how they operate I suppose.

SirLanceAfew writes...

So my Plumber and I connected two "pre charged" refrigerant lines on the Siddons heat pump system.

thats fine. your plumber obviously has the applicable licence to perform such work, being the fine upstanding and honest citizens that plumbers are.

Siddons said it was only a recommendation to have a qualified "Fridgie" do the connection

got that in writing? id like to see it.

I do tradies work around the house all the time, even though I'm not qualified.

hero.

you Fridgies charge too much

thats your view which you are entitled to, do you have any basis for it?

Are you upset that a manufacturer has come up with a clever design (one shot pre charged couplings ), that may take work away from you ?

systems pre-charged with refrigerant are not a new invention, its not that 'clever' a design.
regulations already exist for these devices.

Maveri writes...

Your crying because someone developed a device that tackles what the law was introduced to do

see above. this is not a new innovation.

welcome to technology mate

welcome to the industry mate.

The more greedy industry groups attempt to sew up a market through rules, the more you create a market for a technological solution.

you'll find these regulations are a result of government desire to minimise environmental damage by unqualified persons rather than industry lobbying. there isnt near enough money in these little jobs for the industry to bother lobbying the government for restrictive regulations.

In the UK electrical wiring of simple socket replacements etc has been legalized and before long that will happen here too.

youre not in the old country anymore laddie. there is no movement in the foreseeable future – nobody is pushing for the rolling back of australian standards.

People do not have the money to keep getting in 'experts' time and time again – that style of living went with the economic crash – it's back to frugal living and that means doing things more yourself

hahaah... thats the most outlandish comment ive heard in a long time! nothing went out with the 'economic crash'.. especially not the hiring of professional services.

Maveri writes...

it really gets up my nose when I see people trying to scaremonger others.

this isnt scaremongering. its reality. get with it.

I did electrical wiring many years ago so I have an idea of what's involved – naturally I wouldn't do it myself though ;-)

well thats good because doing so will void your insurance should you ever need to make a claim (even if a fault isnt caused by your work, your claim would still be denied) as well as your liability should you sell your house.
keep in mind its a punishable offence to perform unlicenced electrical work. prosecution notices are made public including personal details, offence committed and the court's punishment.

here is my supporting evidence:

from http://www.arctick.org/faq_main.php# :

Who needs a refrigerant handling licence?

Any person who handles refrigerant or works on RAC equipment must hold a refrigerant handling licence. Handling a refrigerant means doing anything with the refrigerant, or a component of RAC equipment, that carries the risk of its emission, including:

* decanting the refrigerant; or
* manufacturing, installing, commissioning, servicing or maintaining RAC equipment, irrespective if whether or not refrigerant is present; or
* decommissioning or disposing of RAC equipment where refrigerant is present.

from http://www.environment.gov.au/atmosphere/ozone/rac/technicians.html :

A Refrigerant Handling Licence must be held by any person that handles fluorocarbon refrigerant. Handling a refrigerant means to do anything with the refrigerant that carries the risk of its emission, including: decanting the refrigerant; or manufacturing, installing, commissioning, servicing or maintaining RAC equipment; or decommissioning or disposing of RAC equipment.

Handling fluorocarbon refrigerant without a Refrigerant Handling Licence is an offence.

the department of environment currently has a public consultation process underway as part of its proposal to include the installation and decommissioning of split heat pump hws as part of the allowable scope of works for a restricted split system airconditioning licence. currently a full refrigeration and airconditioning licence is required.

i cannot find any online source for the proposal but industry is well aware of it.
a scanned version of a hard copy is available:
http://members.westnet.com.au/assailant/Decommissioning _Licence.PDF

<edit> fixed quote highlighting

Assailant writes...

systems pre-charged with refrigerant are not a new invention

I remember working on York heat pump A/C 30 years ago with R22 pre-charged lines.

Wait until one of these DIYers gets a good liquid burn, then they'll be calling for a Fridgie and doctor lol.

For hot water continuous flow Nat gas units are the best IMHO.

The only time you would consider heatpump HW is if you cant get Nat gas.

Assailant writes...

hero.

Why, thankyou. Just the average Aussie DIY'er.

Assailant writes...

whats this about? the ones ive seen are a packaged unit – no fridgie work required... (which disappoints me, would be money for jam work hooking those up if an arctick licensed installer was required)

You said it. It's why I did it in about 2 minutes. All the "Arctick" qulaified hot water plumbers in my area wanted to charge me over $2000 ( after rebates ) for the installation of my Siddons heat pump. I ordered direct from Siddons, got a sparky and plumber to install the system, $900 out of pocket after rebates.
You do the math.

so you did it illegally and you saved the dollars. that about sums it up. youre obviously ok with that though.

SirLanceAfew writes...

Siddons said it was only a recommendation to have a qualified "Fridgie" do the connection, and my warranty would not be voided because I chose not to have it done this way.

That's incorrect and it's ridiculous that a manufacturer is advising customers to essentially break the law. ALL work with refrigerants that have an ODP or GWP require a license. I'd also like to see that in writing. Got a link?

edit: found it. http://www.siddonssolarstream.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=section&id=4&Itemid=42

Are you upset that a manufacturer has come up with a clever design (one shot pre charged couplings ), that may take work away from you ?

Precharged lines and couplings still need to be leak tested using the correct equipment.

Maveri writes...

People are not stupid and instead of trying to shut people down we should be educating people

We are educating people. R417a the refrigerant which is used in Siddons heat pumps has a global warming potential of 1950. So for every 1 kilogram of R417a released into the atmosphere it equals 1950 Kgs of carbon dioxide.

I'm not happy with people without the correct tools or knowledge gambling with the environment to save some coin.

Youbloodybeauty writes...

Precharged lines and couplings still need to be leak tested using the correct equipment.

Soapy water.

Youbloodybeauty writes...

I'm not happy with people without the correct tools or knowledge gambling with the environment to save some coin.

The couplings take no time to connect ( with simple spanners, forget correct tools ), with virtually zero risk of leaks. What's the problem ?

Youbloodybeauty writes...

That's incorrect and it's ridiculous that a manufacturer is advising customers to essentially break the law. ALL work with refrigerants that have an ODP or GWP require a license. I'd also like to see that in writing. Got a link?

I've got it written in a personal email from Siddons. And no, you can't have the link to my email.

Seriously, you guys need to just move on.

SirLanceAfew writes...

Soapy water.

Soapy water doesn't show small leaks on couplings like an electronic detector.

SirLanceAfew writes...

The couplings take no time to connect ( with simple spanners, forget correct tools ), with virtually zero risk of leaks. What's the problem ?

The problem is you can't confirm the system is leak tight, you don't have the correct qualifications or equipment and you seem to think it's ok to potentially release 2 tonnes of carbon dioxide to the atmosphere to save yourself a dollar. It's arrogant penny pinching.

Youbloodybeauty writes...

It's arrogant penny pinching.
looks to me like somebody needs to give penny a pich on the bum and wake her up about all this carbon crap....

Youbloodybeauty writes...

The problem is you can't confirm the system is leak tight, you don't have the correct qualifications or equipment and you seem to think it's ok to potentially release 2 tonnes of carbon dioxide to the atmosphere to save yourself a dollar. It's arrogant penny pinching.

Well, it's been nearly 5 months now that the system was installed, and it works like a gem. I'd say my "arrogant penny pinching" has paid off. Do you want to move on ?
And as far as connecting two screw couplings together with spanners, what would you have done differently apart from charge two arms and legs, as in the quotes I obtained.) ?

"whats this about? the ones ive seen are a packaged unit – no fridgie work required... (which disappoints me, would be money for jam work hooking those up if an arctick licensed installer was required)"

Lets not forget your previous comment.

SirLanceAfew writes...

Lets not forget your previous comment.

thanks but i said that, not ybb.

there is no great scandal there. itd be a good job, not messy or painful. its not often we get jobs like those.

the fact of the matter is, like i previously mentioned, according to the regulations you must have the unit installed by a licenced person. you didnt do that. you broke the law.
you are happy to do that. we've explained to you why the regulations exist and yet you continue to deny the fundamental basis for the existence of those regulations.

ive proven that these systems are not new or fancy or in any way is this some sort of technological advance that circumvents all of the existing legislation – they dont!

so stop being a pillick by encouraging illegal activity.

Assailant writes...

there is no great scandal there. itd be a good job, not messy or painful. its not often we get jobs like those.

Well why did your "mates" want to charge so much ?

so stop being a pillick by encouraging illegal activity.

I never encouraged anybody to do it. I did it myself to avoid being ripped by your "pillicky" mates.

SirLanceAfew writes...

I never encouraged anybody to do it. I did it myself to avoid being ripped by your "pillicky" mates.

No fridge mechanic would waste their time on them.

The point I'm making is the licencing exists to save the environment. Something you seem to put second to saving a dollar. It's not something I like seeing encouraged. Money has SFA to do with it as I don't install them.

Youbloodybeauty writes...

No fridge mechanic would waste their time on them.

Nuff said.

SirLanceAfew writes...

Nuff said.

you imply that you agree with the comment that suggests that fridge mechanics wouldnt waste their time installing heat pump hws..

..and yet you ask:

SirLanceAfew writes...

Well why did your "mates" want to charge so much ?

so did you get a price from a qualified person to install your heat pump hws?

I never encouraged anybody to do it.

sure you did.

here:

SirLanceAfew writes...

I do tradies work around the house all the time, even though I'm not qualified. I change light bulbs, fix leaking taps and even change the oil in my car.

here:

SirLanceAfew writes...

I did it in about 2 minutes.

and here:
All the "Arctick" qulaified hot water plumbers in my area wanted to charge me over $2000...I ordered direct from Siddons, got a sparky and plumber to install the system, $900 out of pocket after rebates.
You do the math.

Why do you keep derailing this thread ? What more do you want from me ? If it's an official Whirlpool apology, it aint coming.

Don't worry about it SirLanceAfew – these people obviously enjoy a nanny state.

I agree with everything you've said.

We all have our own minds and we can all make our own choices.

Knowledge is power. Choice is a right.

Bet you wish you'd never mentioned it now. I for one am glad you did though.

My Siddons was installed by Australian Hot Water in Seven Hills and if I'm being generous, they were clueless – but installed it nevertheless.

One of the guys even told my neighbour over the fence that he'd never even seen one before and there was no manual anywhere.

I wish I'd done what you did, because I downloaded the manuals – and hey guess what – it's a total cakewalk.

I believe in getting in tradies when it's necessary, and ONLY when it's necessary.

If everyone got tradies in all the time for simple stuff because they were forced to – well that kind of culture and attitude would have held Australia back.

DIY is an Australian birthright – but it's slowly getting chipped away by the fearful it seems...

Avast! writes...

DIY is an Australian birthright – but it's slowly getting chipped away by the fearful it seems...

In this case the law exists to protect the environment. I'm all for people having a go but not if it potentially releases tonnes of CO2.

The stupid thing is if SirLanceAfew had the smarts to use an Arctick qualified plumber the whole job would've been completed for the same money without him lifting a finger.

As he pointed out it takes SFA time to do up two unions but they would be professionally leak tested.

As for a $2000 quote to tighten some unions that's complete crap. For that kind of money you'd get two split systems installed and wired. So it's no justification for being a tightarse.

Youbloodybeauty writes...

As for a $2000 quote to tighten some unions that's complete crap.

They were ( 2 quotes ) $2000 plus ( cant remember exact figures ) for arctik qualified plumbers to supply and install the system after rebates. This sort of rort basically forced me into the DIY route. As I said, $900 installed versus $2000 plus. Could I have got a fridgie to come around just to do up two couplings, maybe, but what would he have charged me if he could be bothered with such a small job. Lets say $200 for 5 minutes work, not acceptable in my books. And I released zero CO2 anywhere. Is it against the law, technically yes, but let those amongst us that have never broke the law in anyway give us their view.

Netlust writes...

Not much discussion here about Quantum units.

I've just had the 270L version installed. I was worried about noise, hot water pressure and various issues in general mentioned here.

Compared to my 25 year old in roof electric storage system, all I can say is WOW! Hot water doesn't seem to want to run out (two people), and comes out at far greater pressure than my old gravity fed system.

Now after the savage electricty bill comes through = wow.... Hydroheat usage (Tassie fixed heating + Hotwater tarriff).... very good for the cold July – Sep months...... and including use of hotwater for washing up / dishwasher / bathroom and washing machine duties.

Very impressed. In terms of noise, you can hear it in the right (wrong?) spots IMO.... pressure has been the same as the previous Dux electric HWS IMO – but that was mains pressure, not roof gravity fed either......

And as I don't have mains gas – I reckon this was my best choice.

SirLanceAfew writes...

Lets say $200 for 5 minutes work,

if it were me you called it wouldve been $110 callout including the first 30mins. so you wouldve had it professionally installed, legally and without voiding your warranty (no letter, no proof. i showed you my letter re: heat pump licensing but you wont show us yours) for markedly less than you thought.

you are nothing more than a tightarse. plain and simple.

SirLanceAfew writes...

What more do you want from me ?

Is it against the law, technically yes

there we go, finally. it took a while, but the message eventually got through. now we can all relax.

My Quantum 270l is just over 3 years old and appears to have lost some of its gas for the 2nd time. Had a complete loss of refrigerant at just under 1 year and this was rectified under warranty.

I keep daily records of power consumption and I noticed it was still using 6kWh/day even though we have had temps in the 30's for the last couple of months. I checked the sight glass on the drier yesterday and lots of bubbles evident as well as oily appearance around a cuple of connections so I'll contact them today for a service call.

Still producing hot water though.

Assailant writes...

u are nothing more than a tightarse. plain and simple.

You still wont acknowledge the $2000 plus quotes that were given to me from Arctik qualified hot water suppliers. I'd rather be a tight arse than a pleb that gets ripped off. Now you can relax.