Whirlpool

Heyaz!

I'm close to finishing a Bachelor of Multimedia this year and i was tossing up two options!

A) Enroll in an honors year next year (I really want to do a Masters in Europe, however it is required you hold an honors) or;

B) Complete a Masters of Business (Marketing) in Queensland.

I kind of want to continue my education as my degree was only 2 years long but i'd really like advice from other people in the industry about what to choose :-D

:-P!

Naturally the key piece of information we need is 'what do you want to get out of your education'

1337_kazzy writes...

A) Enroll in an honors year next year (I really want to do a Masters in Europe, however it is required you hold an honors)

seems like you have answered your own question

I would also like to know every body else's view on this. I'm doing Engineering atm and am aiming for First class Honours as it saves a year of masters, because this honours is only based on marks. But i was also wondering, if First class Honours more prestigious and well regarded than masters? Because you only have to pass Masters to get it whereas First class Honours you need high marks? Thanks

Mmulv2 writes...

Because you only have to pass Masters to get it whereas First class Honours you need high marks?

You can also obtain a small grade for Honours (H3 I think is the bottom end of the grading scale) and get as much benefit from that as a Pass level Masters.

The question is, what do you want to do? The Honours students I've met are doing it because they're deeply passionate about a particular area and considering a research career (H1 and H2A guarantees entry into a PhD program at most Aussie unis). Masters students are more of a mixed bag depending on what kind of Masters they are doing (transitional vs. specialisation vs. research). The outcomes for each one are quite different though imho there's not much point to doing the latter two types in Australia unless your undergrad degree was obtained overseas (especially in a non-English speaking country) or you bolloxed up Honours.

Mmulv2 writes...

But i was also wondering, if First class Honours more prestigious and well regarded than masters? Because you only have to pass Masters to get it whereas First class Honours you need high marks? Thanks

First class honours is definitely more well regarded as it indicates a high intellectual ability and a high capacity to learn and problem solve thereby placing you in an academic class above the average students. You are right with only having to pass a masters – therefore there is no real way to distinguish one masters student from another. Anyone can do a masters really – it just requires time, money and a willingness to go back to uni. However not everyone has the ability to get first class honours. On the other hand, I personally think that engineering first class honours degrees are losing their prestige these days because the mark threshhold is too low – 80% WAM over 2nd, 3rd and 4th year engineering at my uni. In a good cohort you could end up getting 25% to 50% of the class graduating with first class honours which is ridiculous. Personally I think the bar for first class honours should be raised to 85% (HD average) like they do for the other honours degrees which require you to do an extra year on top of the undergrad degree (eg. finance, economics).

So maybe get first class honours AND do a masters.

Masters sounds nicer...but you have to be aware that Masters by coursework and Masters by research are two totally different things, except the title. If you wish to do Masters in Europe, then you have to do honours for the research skills.

JuB-jUb writes...

but you have to be aware that Masters by coursework and Masters by research are two totally different things, except the title.

Is it correct to think that masters by research is better respected? Or do you think employers prefer masters by coursework as it can be more easily tailored to the relevance of the job?

i was thinking the same when about to finish my Bachelor degree, but i decided to go out to the working world first to see what I really like to do. If you take on studying further now while you haven't found out the focus of your career then it just waste your time and money. Many people finished their Masters or Honours but then work in something that not related and their Masters/Honours do not help them at all

Depending on the course and university you attend, the coursework in an honours degree is either the same stream, or roughly equivalent to a postgraduate level course. From a vocational perspective, you may find that your university is unable to provide the exact set of courses as options during your honours (my case), which now means that I'm starting a masters next year!

And remember, unless you plan on going academic, it might be a good idea to assess whether the industry you want to work in actually values masters/research/etc, or would place a preference with someone with more experience.

Ubiq23 writes...

Is it correct to think that masters by research is better respected? Or do you think employers prefer masters by coursework as it can be more easily tailored to the relevance of the job?

Depends what you're looking to do. I did coursework because Computer Science was pretty generic, and I wanted to do more web-centric subjects and that's what Masters by coursework is for – post grads wanting to extend their core knowledge.

I think Masters by research is a bit pointless to be honest; I think the best way to get the "respect" is to do honours after bachelors and use it as a precursor for PhD.

JuB-jUb writes...

I think Masters by research is a bit pointless to be honest; I think the best way to get the "respect" is to do honours after bachelors and use it as a precursor for PhD.

Masters by research are for those without honours but have either work experience, masters by coursework, or both, and would like to pursue a PhD.

I also know that in some cases masters by research can be upgraded/expanded to a PhD.

Does anyone know someone who's done a coursework masters while working full time? eg. if started full time grad job next year is it possible to do a masters part time through night classes or web learning? i.e. progress career and earn but keep learning at the same time.

In the "real world", honors is really of limited value, especially when compared to a masters. It should be thought of as a short-cut to a PhD, since it's only a year compared to the two of a masters. Also, as a couple other people have said, have a good think about your reasons for wanting to do a masters.

Also, in many parts of the academic world, masters by research is regarded as a little bit of an oddity. Firstly because there's no standardization of it, and secondly because it's outside the usual academic degree progression.

ziggyboy writes...

Masters by research are for those without honours but have either work experience, masters by coursework, or both, and would like to pursue a PhD.

MPhil is a mini PhD. It has similar entry requirements but goes for 2 years instead of 3. It's probably overkill to qualify you for entry into a PhD but might be a good alternative entryway if you can upgrade it into a PhD. I also understand that some people turn their failed PhDs into MPhils (NB: I don't mean failed as in bad work but failed as in wanted to finish early or quit after having obtained some good results).

emboss writes...

In the "real world", honors is really of limited value, especially when compared to a masters.

It really depends. Honours is a nice mix of ½ coursework ½ thesis (usually). I think the combination is quite powerful as you learn about advanced topics but also spend significant time extending the state of the art in one particular area.

You probably come out better rounded than someone with a 3yr Bachelor + Masters. Then again, some Masters (the two year kind) also feature a research component making it an extended Honours-like experience.

Personally I'll do a Graduate Diploma over an Honours. Of course, unless you're thinking of specialising.

I have a Media and Communication background, so having an Honours doesn't go me good. It's experience that counts.

Doing a Graduate Diploma actually expands my skills and repertoire, so it's much better for me.

You gota think about what you want.

Ubiq23 writes...

Does anyone know someone who's done a coursework masters while working full time?

I am currently studying a Masters by coursework part time while working full time. Two nights a week (5:30-8:30pm) I'm at uni.

It's a big commitment but I'm enjoying the subjects I'm doing, after much deliberation I'm glad I made the decision to enrol.

Do your honours now, get a few years work experience, then go and do your masters.

You'll find that most people doing their masters (apart from some international students who already have bachelors from their home countries) have at least a couple of years work experience, and it helps a lot.

Many employers will help pay for masters when you do it. Mine is reimbursing my course fees, even though I'm deferring payment with FEE-HELP.. Thailand here I come!

xs ive writes...

You probably come out better rounded

Oh, I agree ... what I meant by "real world" essentially was employability. Unless you're going into research (where the standard entry requirement is a PhD anyhow in most cases) then I'd say most employers would rate masters over honours, and honours only marginally above a vanilla bachelors (and def. below having 1 years experience or interviewing better).

Depends on the field, YMMV, etc.

If you're after an industry career you're better off entering the workforce after a pass bachelors degree and enroll to do masters part-time while working full-time.

Having a completed a masters degree part-time over 2-4 years while working full-time is far more impressive than bachelors+honours/masters then looking for work. Most employers will see that as dedication and commitment to one's career.

As an honours student, you may also be able to get a job as a tutor, which does pay well.

If you intend to work abroad then go Master's.

Elsewhere, the norm is Bachelor then Master's.

Explaining to recruiters you did an extra year to get honours is not worth the effort. In the UK we get honours unless you are really thick! Then, you get a pass degree.

The norm in USA is Bachelor plus Master's. Europe is going the same way.

Ian

Iangh writes...

In the UK we get honours unless you are really thick! Then, you get a pass degree.

If this thread is anything to go by, UK Honours isn't even close to being equivalent to Australian Honours.

From what I've been able to gather, our 4 year degrees are much stronger when compared to European degrees.

I can't comment on other countries

In AUS, to get honours in a 4 year course its roughly 70 to 75% for first class and 60 to 65% for III class, which IMO isn't very hard, even at a G8 uni I would think 65% would not be difficult unless you are doing LAW or MED.

xs ive writes...

If this thread is anything to go by, UK Honours isn't even close to being equivalent to Australian Honours.

From what I've been able to gather, our 4 year degrees are much stronger when compared to European degrees.

What's that got to do with perception? Not that I agree, BTW.

If you are going to the UK try explaining Aus honours versus UK honours. Try that in USA – good luck.

If you are going to the UK look into doing a part-time Master's in the evening while you are there -2 years, 2 evenings/week.

Ian

It all depends on what you want to do. My wife did her Psyc honors year and by getting first class, she was able to get into do a doctorate in neuropsychology at a G8 uni. Saying that though, the G8's aren't all they are cracked up to be, UWA's Psych department is an embarrassment!

Just so you know, my wife would never recommend post grad study to anyone after her experiences in a G8 uni.

voodochile writes...

In AUS, to get honours in a 4 year course its roughly 70 to 75% for first class and 60 to 65% for III class, which IMO isn't very hard, even at a G8 uni I would think 65% would not be difficult unless you are doing LAW or MED.

You make it sound like it's all so easy.

H1 @ ANU (and most unis I've seen) is >80% and H2A is 70-79%. To get that mark you need take at least 4 senior undergrad or postgrad level courses and complete lots of *extra* work on top of an already challenging curriculum. Then there's the project + thesis which counts for over half your overall Honours grade.
To write a good thesis you need to do good science which is hard in itself. In my experience the quality of H1 Honours theses at ANU are such that they can usually be turned into 1 or 2 conference papers.

Iangh writes...

What's that got to do with perception?

Nothing. I was just pointing out that you were comparing apples with oranges.

xs ive writes...

Nothing. I was just pointing out that you were comparing apples with oranges.

BTW, just for fun.
Check out British university rankings relative to Aus here http://www.arwu.org/

Also, honours degrees are only 3 years in UK albeit we do an extra year (year 13) at school.

Go to Oxford or Cambridge and you get the MA for nothing – no exams, no coursework. http://www.admin.cam.ac.uk/univ/degrees/ma/

Back to OP's question.
This describes how the EU is adopting 3-year degrees followed by 2-year Master's.
http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13527558

Bolognese sauce

Apr 23rd 2009 | PRAGUE
From The Economist print edition
A birthplace of higher education tries to become its future too

WHEN European education ministers met in Bologna in 1999 and promised within a decade to forge a common market for universities, it seemed mere Euro-rhetoric. Big obstacles stopped students nipping abroad for a term, or getting degrees recognised. Many countries offered no degree below Masters level. Some examined course modules separately, others all in one go. Under the Erasmus programme many students travelled to other European countries for between a term and a year—but they often found their universities reluctant to give them credit for it.

Yet on April 28th no fewer than 46 European education ministers—from the European Union and 19 other countries, including Russia and Turkey—will gather in another ancient university city, Leuven, to declare the “Bologna process” a triumph. A “European credit-transfer system” is on its way; next year will bring a “European higher education area”. There will be a standardised “diploma supplement” giving details of what students have learnt. And three-year Bachelors degrees followed by two-year Masters are now the general rule, with few exceptions.

Unless you want to go on to do an Aus PhD and use the honours year to kick-start it there is no benefit. You are getting a qualification that will be misunderstood everywhere except Aus.

How long before the Aus education system changes? Will it?

If you intend on going abroad then target oranges – they get paid more.

Ian

voodochile writes...

I can't comment on other countries

In AUS, to get honours in a 4 year course its roughly 70 to 75% for first class and 60 to 65% for III class, which IMO isn't very hard,

That is ridiculous – I've never heard of the threshold for first class honours being that low. Which uni and course is that? 80% plus is minimum for first class for most unis in Australia, and 85%+ is common too especially for finance/economics/science. 80% is too low in my opinion. Anything lower than that is ridiculous and severely devalues a first class honours degree. 1st class should be commensurate with a high distinction average, 2nd class distinction average, 3rd class credit average.

Monash (G8) needs 75% first class

http://www.eng.monash.edu.au/current-students/honours-weighted-average.html

RMIT needs GPA 3.0 first class

http://www.rmit.org.au/browse;ID=bloz6f88b3wr

this is for engineering 4 year duration

Ubiq23 writes...

I've never heard of the threshold for first class honours being that low

Now you have :), this post is not meant to offend anyone just to make things clear

Iangh writes...

Unless you want to go on to do an Aus PhD and use the honours year to kick-start it there is no benefit. You are getting a qualification that will be misunderstood everywhere except Aus.

The US is also not aligned with the proposed European system. Standard degrees are 4 years and special ones like eng are 5. Masters are 2 years with a research component. More than half of US masters are combined coursework and research. Different from European and Australian systems.

Also, honours degrees are only 3 years in UK albeit we do an extra year (year 13) at school.

Thats interesting. What's also interesting is you can go straight into a UK undergrad program straight out of high school in Australia (12 years). I have a friend here who finished HS in Aus, went to the UK to do her undergrad, and came back here.

Proof: http://www.shef.ac.uk/australia/

No 13 years of schooling needed.

ziggyboy writes...

No 13 years of schooling needed.

I didn't say you needed 13 years, did I?

I have been trying to be helpful based on having a few UK degrees and a daughter at Melbourne doing Commerce so I know a bit about both systems.

Going to back to the OPs question, in my view get yourself a Master's as they are more welcome in the UK and US, and to be, Europe.

Having honours is no big deal to recruiters overseas, having a Master's is.

BTW, in VIC the VCE is equivalent to 2 "A" levels and 3 GCSEs.
http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/vce/vcerecognition/equiquals/equiv-yr12.html#H3N1030E

Typically, in the UK one does 8-10 GCSEs when 16, and 3-4 "A" levels when 18. I know somebody that is doing 5! He's bright.

Some uni courses require 2, others 3 or more.

I prefer the Aus system as it is not as academic as the UK system and there is more of a focus on EQ than IQ. Trust me, the UK system is more academic. My daughter in the Aus equivalent of year 9 was doing 3 hours homework minimum in the UK because she wanted to get 10 'A' grades in her GCSEs. GCSEs are public exams not school exams. She came here and couldn't believe her luck!!

At the end of the day your degree/uni gets you through the door.
Ian

voodochile writes...

Monash (G8) needs 75% first class

That's eng honours which is simply a weighted average and not the same as a traditional Honours program.

If you study an actual Honours year @ Monash, H1 is 80% over the Honours year alone. It's quite hard to attain.

xs ive writes...

If you study an actual Honours year @ Monash, H1 is 80% over the Honours year alone. It's quite hard to attain.

I think it's different for different courses/faculties/whatever...because when I was at uni, to get into Computer Science Honours, all you needed was 75+ on the big project subject...although this was nearly a decade ago.

JuB-jUb writes...

when I was at uni, to get into Computer Science Honours, all you needed was 75+ on the big project subject

Right. But that's just for admission and independent of the grade you receive at the end.