Whirlpool

Incoming calls ring once and then silence. Person calling hears a lot of static and nothing else. If calling from a landline they hear the first ring, if calling from a mobile just static.
All outgoing calls and internet (ADSL2+) work fine.
What kind of fault would affect only incoming calls? It has been reported, but just curious as to what possible fault would only affect incoming calls.

corroded socket, fault is refered to a loss between which is low insulation resistence between the a and b legs of the circuit, i would pull out all you phone plugs and check them for corrosion, 95% of the time its a corroded socket

basically the incoming AC voltage is looped by the corrosion between the circuit on an incoming ring effectivly answering your call

Thanks for the quick replies guys, I just checked the phone sockets and they appear new. The house is newly built, only 3 years old. Could this be faulty wiring in the house? if so how hard is it to trace/prove/disprove?.
thanks

Can also be faulty over-voltage protectors in the exchange.

not knowing about this fault – could it be caused by a short ? Perhaps the OPs house was terminated in Cat5e if the orange is touching the blue maybe?

hrdct writes...

95% of the time its a corroded socket

+1 for this. Had the same thing happen to me, But mine was intermittent. When i did the line test on 13 2203 (telstra faults) some time it passed other times it didnt.

Finally it failed while the cable guy was there (third time), fault traced using an ohm meter to an unused socket, by isolating each cable run.

scott

hrdct writes...

basically the incoming AC voltage is looped by the corrosion between the circuit on an incoming ring effectivly answering your call

Have done some more testing and what you say is correct.
Ring via a mobile, hear the single ring, don't hang up mobile but pickup phone. Incoming call is there albeit with a *lot* of crackling/noise, so it is answering the call. Strange when you make an outgoing call there is no noise on the line.
Now is the fault internal to the house wiring or external? is that easy to trace and are there any tips for doing this. I have once again examined all the phone outlets, (There are 4 but only one is used) and they appear new with no signs of damage, moisture or corrosion.

Intermittent faults like this are usually the most irritating for your every day telstra field tech. because some days it can test fine, then under certain conditions (i.e Temp change, Wet weather etc) the line can pretty much test o/c or have one hell of a short on it.

So if u end up getting a tech to look at it and he says he cant do anything since its testing fine, call again and again. it WILL test bad eventually with a tech on the other end.

But the socket is not always the problem. YES it is the socket 95% of the time IF there is a Short or loss between testing from the pit outside or Block on the side of the house, but it can be any other CPE (customer premises equipment). but if there is NOT a short testing in.

It is Most probably a faulty Gel Joint (a gel joint was the idea of some a telstra employee a few years back, where they poured a gel like resin into joints, this was called "Seal the can"... the idea was to make the Network so secure and protected against the elements it wasnt needed to be opened ever again. But what they didnt predict was that when watever DOES get into these joints, the gel has a chemical reaction which makes the substance corrosive and eats away at the insulation on the copper wires, just making them bare copper in the joint. and when u get 50 pr of bare copper wires in a conductive gel, it makes for a fun job for a telstra worker...

Sorry went way off topic there, but yeah it is most probably a faulty joint somewhere in the CAN (customer access network) that is only being affected via certain conditions or a join which is border line O/C.

I agree with HRDCT, mostly modular sockets or end of leads, i have had this in Adsl filters a fair bit . I have seen this in gel joints but surprisingly only a handfull of times.

gz© writes...

Now is the fault internal to the house wiring or external?

Apart from looking at all your sockets, leads and filters carefully then you would need it isolated at the block on the side/under house or 1st socket. Not a job that you should be performing.
Another common cause is the forgotten cable that used to go somewhere which has been chopped off and just left to have the ends slowly corrode.

Hi all, an update of this.
Phone started working again at about lunch time, and today was a sunny day. Seems to point to a moisture problem outside the house I would think. Anyone agree? Will wait and see what happens next time it rains.

i have had that many people say "everytime it rains". the humidity can also effect internal wiring so outside is not always to blame, the only other problems would be a gel joint as mentioned, have only found this to be the problem a few times, or the blown lightning arrestors at the exchange, chances are it is more than likely a dud cable or socket in the house though

gz© writes...

What kind of fault would affect only incoming calls?
ring trip caused by LIR. Maybe moisture related? IMO it wont be in the house – it'll be out in the Telstra network somewhere. Call Telstra or you SP.

CreatioNz writes...

It is Most probably a faulty Gel Joint (a gel joint was the idea of some a telstra employee a few years back

Thats what it probably is, what we call a HR (high resistant) fault, alot of liney's can't pick it as it only breaks down the line when ring (high Voltage) is applied to the line. If the liney has a megga he will see the line break down. Happens alot with ISDN2 services, where the line will pass a bert test and the liney says test ok but the isdn2 will drop off from time to time.

we should all place bets on were it is ahahah

JunctionBox writes...

ring trip caused by LIR.

Hi JunctionBox, Could you please translate that for me. I have NFI what it means ;-).

hrdct writes...

we should all place bets on were it is ahahah

That sounds like a great Idea, Tech coming out to check on Wednesday but since it's now working I'll take a bet its NFF. (No Fault Found).

pm me your phone no and i will test it

hrdct writes...

basically the incoming AC voltage is looped by the corrosion between the circuit on an incoming ring effectivly answering your call

Ring trip is a result of a DC loop.

gz© writes...

Could you please translate that for me
translation = you have a line fault, call Telstra or your SP

LIR = low insulation resistance
ring trip = line becomes dc looped after ring is applied. Ring causes LIR (a result of moisture, ants nests, spiders, dirt, metallic contact, corrosion, verdi gris, electrolysis, etc...) to break down enough to create a dc loop. The crackling you mentioned is sometimes called "frying" – caused by the LIR varying in intensity

its testing 3meg a to b but 11v battery on the a, so there is a fault on it still, the fact it passes spec on the resistance between could indicate a faulty lightening arrestor at the exchange

hrdct writes...

11v battery on the a
hmm?...caused by corroded socket???...not!
we should all place bets on were it is
well you did get a red hot tip straight from the (old) horse's mouth!
@19597917 JunctionBox writes...
caused by LIR....it'll be out in the Telstra network somewhere

f/b does not cause lir, anyways he said it is working again, even though its testing 11v, so it could still be anywere, like one of his sockets, anyways i have had 30v in a wet socket before

hrdct writes...

f/b does not cause lir
no but LIR can cause fb! There are 3 main forms of LIR:
low between
low to gnd
low to batt (of another pair)

from what I've seen lately I expect there will be others:
low to gas pipe
low to tv aerial
low to 240v
low to ipod
etc...

so it could still be anywere, like one of his sockets
unless he has two lines going to one socket how can it cause fb?
FB can only come from another source of batt – like another line.

it is working again, even though its testing 11v,
Did you hit it with the HV test? damn...that's the problem with these new fangled robots...there's no 90v HV?
When I did my 1st year TIT course maybe it was my second – memory is r00ted I had to draw the exchange test desk cct for detecting FB. Can you do that? If you can then you would have a better understanding of what FB is.

JunctionBox writes...

hmm?...caused by corroded socket???...not!

Very unlikey but that 11v may have nothing to do with the Op's problem, it could be an entirely different issue but it does give the tech something to chase so you never know.

Thanks guys, this is great.
Just for additional info, it stopped working this morning and then came back again. (Someone called me on the mobile to say they could not get through on the landline, but when I called the landline it worked). So it's definitely very flaky.
There is only one line going to the house.
Will be interesting to see what the techs say, latest update is that someone will "investigate" by the 18/6.
Waiting with baited breath ;-)

hrdct writes...

could indicate a faulty lightening arrestor at the exchange

How does one test the arrestors when they are not faulting out at that moment?

Are there any handy tricks for locating intermittent looped line faults? ( When they test well within specs AB after multiple fasts ? )

we had an exchange here in newcastle, alot of lines passed spec but if you went into the equipment room to the s12 rack and pulled out the lightning arrestor on the card you can see all the black burn marks on them, hell i even got 48v out of one

no but LIR can cause fb!

+1

I had to draw the exchange test desk cct for detecting FB. Can you do that?

Nope, but I would like to take a guess at your age but carbon dating is only accurate to 65 million years. ;)

hrdct writes...

s12 rack and pulled out the lightning arrestor

I know of several exchanges where this is happening. Sometimes you can smell these things burning when people get called and ring current is applied to the lines.

It's in the IPF's (intermediate protection frames?) where the lightning arrestor cards are installed, in the Siemens blocks. The IPF's can be in the equipment rooms, or they can be in a section on the MDF.

They must be reaching a certain age where they are failing. Also in one exchange which is the worst for this, a lot of the lines are aerial, maybe cop more lightning hits.

h1000 writes...

I would like to take a guess at your age
yep, I'm an old fart – but that doesn't change fb – it's still caused by the same old issues!

haha F/B on the line? GEL JOINT! haha i f*cking HATE gel joints.... nothing worse than Sawing open a joint noone else has gotten into, ripping out the Un-Cured Gel (smells Terrible) and cleaning the joint out, just to find ur fault wasnt there and wouldnt u know it, u just put in 3 faults by playing with the joint haha.

Update.
Found a calling card under the door yesterday. I was home all day so they did not even bother to ring the doorbell. Basically said tech attended but was "too wet to work outside so please make another appointment".
Keep in mind that the entry point is a gray box on the wall outside the house and the fault was reported as intermittent, shoing up mainly when it rains.
Guess I'll just have to make another appointment.
And the fault is still there, although very intermittent, only a few calls don't get through. Don't know exactly ho many as not everyone would bother calling me on mobile when they can't get through. Something very marginal there.

... look at your sockets – how close to the floor? – house cleaner with a sloppy mop can cause a wet /damp socket .... socket too close to the carpet too ... ... you have not sprayed the socket with WD40 anytime have you – this in time can absorb moisture ...
... too wet outside for the CT – does not mean the tech cannot go inside to test the first socket ....
... intermittent is best tested with the listening method – sit on the line and listen for crackle ....

rob111 writes...

... too wet outside for the CT – does not mean the tech cannot go inside to test the first socket ....

What time was the appointment? because the Tech would of tested form the Exchange and seen nothing was wrong, went to premises and tested from pit outside or wallbox and IF he saw a fault inside should of knocked and asked to check sockets and CPE... clearly he didnt do that... i mean a tech claiming its to wet to work outside... when he can check a pit or the wallbox... thats just him trying to get easy points or if he is on an AWA, just trying to make quick dollars. Telstra Strikes again.

rob111 writes...

... too wet outside for the CT – does not mean the tech cannot go inside to test the first socket ....

That's what I would have thought. Hence the surprise when he didn't even ring the bell.
Besides according to hrdct, (many thanks hrdct)

hrdct writes...

its testing 3meg a to b but 11v battery on the a, so there is a fault on it still, the fact it passes spec on the resistance between could indicate a faulty lightening arrestor at the exchange

Presumably you don't even need to be near the place to do that sort of test.

not too stressed at this time but will see how long it takes to resolve.

CreatioNz writes...

i mean a tech claiming its to wet to work outside... when he can check a pit or the wallbox...

To be fair you are not supposed to open things up if its going to get wet.Still I would expect a box on the wall to be checked unless it was really pouring and even then if you are going to go to the effort of leaving a card you might as well knock on the door.

thats just him trying to get easy points or if he is on an AWA, just trying to make quick dollars.

If the rumours are true about the points are going to be adjusted down then these people are just shooting them selves in the foot ( and taking others with them).

i have been to plenty of jobs that have been carded when the customer has been home, and guess what, every single one has been by a contractor

just checked CRUX, and guess what, it was a contractor, OMG,, but the job was incompleted, not completed, so the job will come back out without another phonecall being made

CreatioNz writes...

haha F/B on the line? GEL JOINT! haha i f*cking HATE gel joints.... nothing worse than Sawing open a joint noone else has gotten into,

I hear Telstra has a new policy about gelled joints, and cutting throats. Apparently they do not want cut throats any more and if you do get a situation then call a team leader?

h1000 writes...

I hear Telstra has a new policy about gelled joints, and cutting throats. Apparently they do not want cut throats any more and if you do get a situation then call a team leader?

Don't tell me they've changed the policy again.So I have to throw out my pretty pictures of how to slash below a joint.At least there does seem to be some effort on Telstra's part lately to fix up problem joints.

i just undercut on the spot and make an effort to remake in the near future, if not on the TOW, you guys saw my bounty from brisbag

Joint remakes are great for the network, but they do tend to put faults on though. I am chasing a fault tommorow on a payphone that has had two joints remade/straightened when the section in between was the actual fault, not gelled joints so I am going to have to re-rig my pair to get it working again.

rob111 writes...

house cleaner with a sloppy mop can cause a wet /damp socket
the house keeper can be as sloppy as she (or he?) likes...wet sockets do not cause fb!!!

hrdct writes...

you guys saw my bounty from brisbag

Just out of interest, why don't you post a few photos of your remakes so we can see the quality? ;)

JunctionBox writes...

wet sockets do not cause fb!!!

Actually,if the floor is concrete the acid in the concrete can create FB.I have come across this a few times.
CD

Crazy Diamond writes...

the acid in the concrete
oh..yes I forgot about the hydrochloric acid in concrete!
btw...concrete is alkaline – not acidic!

can create FB
concrete floors have metal rio mesh encased inside. They are at or near earth potential.

I have come across this a few times.
so when you put your voltmeter between the concrete floor and a good earth what did you read?

The faults that i can recall,the house had a burst water pipe,wet sockets and testing in from the two pair outfront it had F/Batt.I replaced the sockets and F/Batt gone.And my science re concrete not so good.I might of tested concrete to gnd,can't remember.But i'm sure that was causing the fault.
CD.

Crazy Diamond writes...

But i'm sure that was causing the fault.
If concrete is wet and there are other issues like earth potential rise, or 240v leakage to earth, or leakage from a nearby railway track, etc,...then yes I agree there could be some sort of fb issue – but I can't see that it would be generated from within the concrete slab.

I might of tested concrete to gnd,can't remember
sounds like magic concrete...you might be on to something here! Can you send me a piece?

JunctionBox writes...

sounds like magic concrete...you might be on to something here! Can you send me a piece?

Ha ha,sarcasm the lowest form of wit.But jokes aside that is what i found,more than once.You may doubt me,that's ok.
CD.

h1000 writes...

Just out of interest, why don't you post a few photos of your remakes so we can see the quality? ;)

will take a few snaps next week

Crazy Diamond writes...

The faults that i can recall,the house had a burst water pipe,wet sockets and testing in from the two pair outfront it had F/Batt.I replaced the sockets and F/Batt gone.

I've had one where an old cable to a shed had been buried into the wet ground.Tested F/B in, one line only.

I might of tested concrete to gnd,can't remember.

I've certainly had a number where bare ends in render have cause earth faults.

i had a fault yesterday for a naked dsl service, had 8v on it past the 1st socket, only one line

drekkus writes...

I've had one where an old cable to a shed had been buried into the wet ground.Tested F/B in, one line only.
You're reading earth with EPR or earth loop? It will show as fb on your meter but in reality it's just an earth fault.
The issue is that earth is not a constant. If you put a voltmeter between 2 separate earth stakes you can often get a voltage indicated. It's due to earth loops. In most cases it will be fairly low – maybe less than 10v.

so what happened with the fault

haha so we went from helping someone with a strange fault to talking about faults in concrete... i LOVE whirlpool! haha

Update.
Just been advised by phone that the fault "has been repaired" and asked if I am happy with the results.
No sign of another technician coming out, and no other notes left under the front door ;-).
Well I can dial in but I have been able to do that in the past anyhow. This is an intermittent fault which by definition means that it sometimes works and sometimes doesn't, mostly in an unpredictable fashion.
So will wait and see
P.S. By this I can assume that the fault was external, if they have fixed something without a tech coming to the property, so for those that voted fault is external to the property, you win.

Have had the exact same problem with modular sockets many times. If any moisture has gotten into the socket, corrosion has grown between the a nd b legs. Could not be seen by external inspecton, but if you broke the socket open (Krone 4/8 telstra spec), carbon link between the two internal tracks could be seen. As it was internal in the socket between the termination and the visable connections of the socket, pretty hard to find without megga testing.

gz© writes...

P.S. By this I can assume that the fault was external, if they have fixed something without a tech coming to the property, so for those that voted fault is external to the property, you win.

prob a gel joint k? :) haha

CreatioNz writes...

prob a gel joint k? :) haha

Knowing my luck, it would be mulitple faults.

line now testing 0v a and b and 5meg all round, perfect line

hrdct writes...

line now testing 0v a and b and 5meg all round, perfect line

Excellent, Many thanks for that, ;D
Any chance of finding out what the fault actually was?.
cheers

yeah it would be good to know what assumptions were actually in the right direction

the system is not reporting any info on what the problmem was

hrdct writes...

the system is not reporting any info on what the problmem was

Thanks for looking,
bugger and I was really really curious to find out what the problem was.
At least it wasn't inside the house like a wet/corroded socket. so that leaves gell joints or lightning arrestors, I think, and from the time it took to fix (quick) I doubt it was a gell joint, I somehow would have expected that to take ages. But then I have zero knowledge of these things so this is just guessing.
edit: This is a ULL line bundled with iinet so Telstra fixing this quick and painless needs to be commented.
Never thought I'd say a well done to Telstra. ;-)

hrdct writes...

the system is not reporting any info on what the problmem was

What was the clearance code ?.Might give an idea.

gz© writes...

I think, and from the time it took to fix (quick) I doubt it was a gell joint, I somehow would have expected that to take ages.

Local knowledge and a joint that is already cut below could mean it wouldn't take long at all.

gz© writes...

This is a ULL line bundled with iinet so Telstra fixing this quick and painless needs to be commented.

no its not, ULL's have a special number to look them up and we cant test them either, i could test it and was able to look up your number

and crux does not show a clear code, it just shows the contractor who fixed it, then again it might take a few days to upload

btw heres a 100pr i did the other day with my trainee, will take some pics of other joints soon
http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/2827/24062009004.jpg
http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/4042/24062009005.jpg

hrdct writes...

heres a 100pr i did the other day with my trainee

lol

a wet behind the ear training a wet behind the ear

thanks sol

Rangar writes...

a wet behind the ear training a wet behind the ear

considering im top 2% in performanced and compliance for field staff and have the best stats accross newcastle, yeah maybe i have no idea

Rangar writes...

training a wet behind the ear

Lets see some pics of your 100 pr, hey??

Looks OK to me...

hrdct writes...

considering im top 2% in performanced and compliance for field staff and have the best stats accross newcastle, yeah maybe i have no idea

Don't take the bait.I believe its what your peers think about your work thats a true indicator of how good you are.The only ones who are qualified to do that are the people who work with you.
Some of the dodgyest techs I've known had great stats because they knew how to use the system to their advantage but their name was mud amongst their fellow workers.

well i get on pretty good with everyone in my team, at team brief i always get a good wrap of my team leader and other techs ringing me up letting me know when they have found an easy remake for me, so when i have got blokes in my team asking me to do some joints, i must be doing something right

i just take pride in my work and my job, pretty hard to prove when us techs have got a bad stereotype about us

hrdct writes...

i just take pride in my work and my job, pretty hard to prove when us techs have got a bad stereotype about us

I'm 30 year plus liney. From your pics looks like you do a good job. Keep your pride even if it only pleases yourself,the network will thank you in the end.
Good luck and a good career I say to you

hrdct writes...

well i get on pretty good with everyone in my team, at team brief i always get a good wrap of my team leader and other techs ringing me up letting me know when they have found an easy remake for me, so when i have got blokes in my team asking me to do some joints, i must be doing something right

Well hrdct, all I can say is that if your willingness to help others and explain things is even one tenth of what you have shown in this thread you should be the top in the state, not just the top 2%, and I can see why you get on well with everyone.
Cheers and many thanks, If your'e ever in North Sydney give me a call, I Think I owe you a beer or three. ;-)

gz© writes...

a beer or three
huh?...did someone mention drinks?

Did you do the joint or did the trainee? i hope your teaching your trainee how to di it by actually making him do it haha. that was a problem i had for a while when i was a trainee, i had seen 100 + joint remakes done but never got to do one myself since i was with an AWA bloke (always in a rush) so it was hard for me to learn. And i agree, Keep up the good work mate, everyone appreciates someone giving them a hand when they need it :)

i let him collet the country side and prepare the lead-ins

heres a couple more 30pr i knocked over today
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/7827/29062009.jpg
http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/2953/29062009001.jpg

gz© writes...

Cheers and many thanks, If your'e ever in North Sydney give me a call, I Think I owe you a beer or three. ;-)
actually my mrs used to live corner of pennant hills rd and the commanara parkway or whatever its called at thornleigh, oposite the woolies, used to be up there almost everyweek end

hrdct writes...

heres a couple more 30pr i knocked over today

Looks better than the ones I do , I may need to do a few more to get back into it.

Are you pouring those joints , it just looks like the cables sheafs are a fair way out into the joint.And is that a couple of 2 pair stubs I see. ?
So how bad are these joints, fairly straight still or full of shonks.?

most joints are fairly straight, i dont pour any of the joints as i believe it will stuff the cables aswell, i bring the sheath up another inch then what is advised to do so the cable wont be sitting in any water that will condense inside the joint, so yeah not totaly complaint but i have been audited a few times and have never been questioned as my team leader agrees with my reasons for making a joint like that, either way its better than gel.

and yeah i always shrink down with spairs if there is under 4/5 leadins

and yeah i always shrink down with spairs if there is under 4/5 leadins

So do I if I'm using the last port.

hrdct writes...

thornleigh, oposite the woolies, used to be up there almost everyweek end

Hey that's not too far from me at all. I usually do my shopping at that woolies.
;-)

todays activities included a 50pr
http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/7418/30062009.jpg
http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/5346/30062009001.jpg

Nice work, any tips on how to stop the heat shrink tube from shrinking off the main port?

Batla writes...

Nice work, any tips on how to stop the heat shrink tube from shrinking off the main port?

I find making sure that the port is well sanded and doing the shrinking down in 2 steps helps.

or dont get the cutover joints, just the sealed, port is already pre-shrunk

hrdct writes...

port is already pre-shrunk

Yes, but if you put enough heat on a pre-shrunk port it will slide off too.

JT

ive never had one slip off but i have split a couple

ah good cheap old bata safety boots :p

Batla writes...

Nice work, any tips on how to stop the heat shrink tube from shrinking off the main port?

Do it in 2 parts as Drekkus said. And a blast of butane out of a refill can chills it to make it set straight away, works great. Not that i have really made a lot of joints though, so i disclaim myself from any personal injury.

drekkus writes...

Are you pouring those joints

haha i think he means with Epoxy on the Aircore cables, no-one pours gel anymore lol.

Also a quick tip to stop the heatshrink sliding off.

1. You can use a ziptie to hold it there (but u do get marks on the heatshrink) so if u get audited on the joint u may get pinged for the marks.
OR
2. Wet a Chux and as soon as u have finished with the flame, put the wet chux onto the heatshrink, this drasticly cools it so it grabs the port much faster without letting it slide off :)

just always do it in 2 steps, shring the port, let it settle for 5 min then shrink the base around the cables, no need for chux or zip ties

some more magical joints
http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/2470/02072009003o.jpg
and
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/8508/07072009.jpg
http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/9061/07072009001.jpg

hrdct writes...

some more magical joints

magical ?

Hmm. Not to be critical, your sleeve work looks ok, but I would like to know how long your conductors are (the photo might be a little deceptive but your conductors look too long. 130-150 mm small joint, 180-200mm large). Also, the sheath cut should be in line with the bottom plate of the joint unless there is air-cored cable in that port section (which is sectioned off with the hsoj cutover "spider") to allow for epoxy pour. In other port sections without air-core they should be level with bottom.

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/7827/29062009.jpg

The above joint doesn't look like there is any grey sealant tape in between the 2 pairs in the auxillary port. your white tags are a little too far down the cable, they should be around 300mm beneath the joint as should the red exchange tape. You also appear a little inconsistant with your placement of the collets. Most FCO's require all collets to be inside the onion bag and tied off (when possible, but optional) with corresponding unit colour wire on the onion bag.

Glue extruding in-between all of your 2 pairs is most important as well, as this is the achilles heel of the hsoj, I see from this example that there is insufficient.

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/9061/07072009001.jpg

All in all, not bad for a beginner or joint remaker, but you would be non-conformanced if these were your offerings in a new estate. I'm told that FCO's go light on the critisim on remakes so as to encourage more of them, and I tend to agree it's not a bad thing. But don't take my critique too harshly as I cut my teeth as a cable jointer on new-estates and the FCO in my area wouldn't pass them unless they were perfect.

CreatioNz writes...

u may get pinged for the marks.

If you use a little butane burner, you can get rid of the marks real easy with a quick flash over them. Generally, I shrink my main port sleeve on the port with one of these then finish with the soft flame, and I don't have to use zip ties as the butane burner secures the sleeve a lot tighter. Also handy to get rid of any dots in tough to reach places. Once you get good enough with butane burner, you can use them for the entire auxillary port sleeve too, which is much quicker and you don't need a heat blanket.

hrdct writes...

i bring the sheath up another inch then what is advised to do so the cable wont be sitting in any water that will condense inside the joint, so yeah not totaly complaint but i have been audited a few times and have never been questioned as my team leader agrees with my reasons for making a joint like that, either way its better than gel.

As with anything, there is the right way, the book way, and the wrong way.

It all comes down to what you are trying to achieve.

smeagols ghost writes...

It all comes down to what you are trying to achieve.

Two things.

1) Ensure joint is sealed from water ingress

2) Pass audit

hrdct writes...

some more magical joints

any magical lead cable joint remakes ?

Rangar writes...

any magical lead cable joint remakes ?

A bit of a dying art isn't it.So many of the old timers who worked on it are gone.
I've never remade one and I'm very reluctant to open one if its paper insulated.It needs to be relatively small and buggared otherwise I reckon I'd do more harm than good.

drekkus writes...

I'm very reluctant to open one if its paper insulated.

Come on, your not a fully fledged jointer unless you've set a paper insulated, lead cable joint on fire!

JT

i know my joints are not compliant, i always have the grey tape on my 2pairs, agree that photo does not show it though, as for the glue on the 2 pairs most have the glue coming out but every joint is a little bit different and does not always seem to pour out.
Conductor length is about 30mm more than specified on all my joints for a little bit extra for future cutbacks, the sheath of the cable i bring up further so conductors on not sitting in any water that may condense in the joint.
As for the collets, i always have them sitting in the bags, all my photos show that, except one, its a bit hard to bag it all in a tidy manner when the units are not straight
All in all i think i remake a good joint though

Rangar writes...

any magical lead cable joint remakes ?

lol i actually i can blow off lead sleeves with a hard flame, i used to do C&M on mains before it went to contractors =(
nothing like a 2800 pair paper cable ahahah

hrdct writes...

All in all i think i remake a good joint though

They look reasonably good and its one less crap gell joint in the network.

drekkus writes...

one less crap gell joint in the network.

But without all those "crap gell joints", half of us wouldn't jobs today. So while I agree with all the damage gell has caused, (yes and I poured 100's, possibly 1000's as well), wouldn't you rather have a job.

Besides what would people have to complain about if there wasn't gell. All those noisy faults wouldn't exist.

JT

J.T. writes...

But without all those "crap gell joints", half of us wouldn't jobs today. So while I agree with all the damage gell has caused, (yes and I poured 100's, possibly 1000's as well), wouldn't you rather have a job.

True the gell has meant more techs have kept their job but I still would have perferred a decent network.

Besides what would people have to complain about if there wasn't gell. All those noisy faults wouldn't exist.

They'd still find something.

plenty of opens and shorts,installs and ADSL faults to keep me busy

hrdct writes...

i can blow off lead sleeves with a hard flame,

as opposed to what ?

i used to do C&M on mains before it went to contractors

when was that

nothing like a 2800 pair paper cable ahahah

where are ur happy snaps

hrdct writes...

i know my joints are not compliant

um, shouldn't you want compliance? That's like saying, "..I know I don't fix faults properly.."

as for the glue on the 2 pairs most have the glue coming out but every joint is a little bit different and does not always seem to pour out.

This is the single most important detail on a hsoj. If the glue is not extruding, the joint is not sealed. Every single joint I do/have done has glue coming out at the foils where the 2 pair meets the sleeve, if you don't, you are not doing it correctly. I am not trying to be a smart a** but I used to do QA for a principal contractor as part of my work description and the glue extruding specification is extremely important. If you do not have this, you may as well not remake the joint as it will suck water like a straw. How many old hsoj's do you see in the network that are full of water? You can bet the water ingress has come between the 2 pairs due to it not being sealed properly. You need to balance your mantra of effeciency/production with maintaining the integrity of the seal. It is not good enough to say, "well that one has got glue coming out of it, but that one doesn't....oh well"

Conductor length is about 30mm more than specified on all my joints for a little bit extra for future cutbacks,

Nice thought in theory, but you are now gauranteed that you will have to do a haircut on this joint, and introduce faults down the line as well. You are also continually bending the conductor near the scotchlok backwards and forwards each time you house the joint. The conductors are to be cut at length so as there is no other option but to house the scotchloks in a vertical fashion with the conductor entry points facing directly down. This "bell-houses" the scotchlok from moisture ingress and allows any residual moisture flow away from the connection via gravity. The grease in the connector is only a temporary measure to protect from water ingress,the rest is up to the design of the housing.

the sheath of the cable i bring up further so conductors on not sitting in any water that may condense in the joint.

Hogwash, any "condensation" will be sitting on hard, cool, surfaces like condensation does. You can get condensation on the ceiling. Any condensation(provided the joint is housed correctly) that does well up in the ports even if there was 100% humidity in the joint will not raise above the level of the sheath cut. Any moisture above this level is due to water ingress. What you are effectively doing is shortening the length of exposed conductor by raising the sheath cut, which you are compensating for by lengthening the conductors and not housing them correctly.

Look, it's commendable that you are doing joint remakes, not everyone does, so for that, you get a gold star out of petty cash. But understand, there are a lot of people who work on this network that do not understand the simple reasons behind the rules, and regulations which have been thought out and implimented since PMG. Everyone of those rules and specifications has a purpose behind them that you may not be aware of. Your joints might look ok to you, but to me there is certainly room for improvement if you wish to crow about your acheivements. Remember, it was me who asked you to post those photos, and to your credit, you let us put the blow torch on your efforts, (pardon the pun). I did this because I knew that I would be able to pick the flaws in your work just from the way you post about how many you do. There is an old saying, "Those who say, cannot know...Those who know, cannot say." I am not trying to be mean, just trying to point this out to you. The truth is, the joint is the single most important piece of infrastructure in Telstra's network. Most faults can be traced back to a faulty joint. The situation the network is in, is a direct result of improper joint maintenance. I just want you to be mindful of that fact when you are remaking them. It's not called a "pride" tag for nothing.

(Apologies to the Mod if I have gone OT)

i could quite easily remake the joints in a compliant manner, i just choose not to

hrdct writes...

i just choose not to

ace, you haven't replied to my post

a few months back you were living at home with mum, had been on the job 2 minutes – then the last couple of weeks you have a missus, years on the job experience, main cable jointer, wiping lead joints with your thumb

have I missed something in your remarkable whirlpool/telstra/blog/life

please fill in some gaps

been on the job since may 2004, started doing mains cable, they gave main cable work to contractors so we all went to delivery were i did lots of joints, my traineeship was for a faultman so i moved over to faults, never said i was gun taking of sleeves and spun ends off, would probably take me the best part of an hour, still live at home and dont have a girlfriend any more, anything else?

hrdct writes...

anything else?

nah

btw your life story is chronicled here on whirlpool, thanks to – you

I still want your autograph and you're still my hero

ROFL.... ur a champ :) haha.

Rangar writes...

I still want your autograph and you're still my hero

glad to be idolised by you

hrdct writes...

i could quite easily remake the joints in a compliant manner, i just choose not to

May I ask why?

h1000 writes...

May I ask why?

+1

I am more compliant today than I ever was. That is the way the company is driving me/us. I follow all work instructions/procedures to the letter. It's called the CYA policy – "Cover Your Ass".

I never get a re-report on any work because the job is either completed within specs or it is handed off, I don't care how trivial the handoff may be. The only thing team leaders are interested in is there stats, and therefore so am I.

JT

Rangar writes...

I still want your autograph and you're still my hero

Give the kid a break, he's only been in the job for a couple of years, is still keen and hopes he can make a difference. I've been here for 15 years and while I am now quite skeptical of management I still volunteer for workshops, training, projects and even the recent involvement of an independent marketing company in the hope that one day something I say might actually be heard by someone with some influence.

JT

J.T. writes...

The only thing team leaders are interested in is there stats, and therefore so am I.

They get hammered from above so it just get passed down.... Hope you're following the MT alert procedure to the letter , it seems to be the flavour of the month at the moment.Next month it will be something else.

I never get a re-report on any work because the job is either completed within specs or it is handed off, I don't care how trivial the handoff may be.

You can't always hand off something which is outside specs which is a frustration in itself but I get what you mean.

It's called the CYA policy – "Cover Your Ass".

Its why you sometimes can't get anything done.Nobody wants to put their name to anything which isn't to the letter of the work instructions.

J.T. writes...

Give the kid a break, he's only been in the job for a couple of years, is still keen and hopes he can make a difference.

He does seem to be coping a bit of a grilling. Sure his joints might not be totally compliant but I'll take those joints any day over what he's replacing.Most tech's wouldn't even consider doing joint remakes on the job anymore because of the pressure to get more work done.

in the hope that one day something I say might actually be heard by someone with some influence.

Perhaps I'm a bit more cynical than you.I stopped doing the EOS for a while because I didn't think they were taking them seriously.I will admit there seems to have been a bit of positive movement in recent times.

drekkus writes...

I stopped doing the EOS for a while because I didn't think they were taking them seriously.I will admit there seems to have been a bit of positive movement in recent times.

Yes, the 'Text in your concerns to "David (Thodey)", did appear to have some impact, especially when most of them referred to the lack of customer service all round. He does appear to be genuinely concerned about rebuilding some bridges, and the return of WMC/IDS/OTD (whatever it's called now) to Adelaide, has to be positive.

JT

drekkus writes...

He does seem to be coping a bit of a grilling.

And as I have stated, good on him for doing joint remakes, but there are reasons for doing them properly, and all I was attempting to do was point this out. There is a reason for QA and if you don't do the remake properly, you will be back to square one in a year or so, and then you will be remking the joint with even shorter cable. If the kid wants to stick his neck out and crow, well and good, encouragable even, but I won't let someone do that without questioning the whole picture. I've met gun jointers that can do remakes, in-lines, pillar tails....you name it, faster than anybody. When the rubber meets the road, those are the guys that always fail audit and always put faults on.

I asked the kid why he chooses not to be compliant, to which I still have no reply. I am very interested to know why he intentionally submits sub-standard work when he admits it would be easy for him to make them compliant. I personally don't like to see this kind of behaviour encouraged. If you really want to do the kid a favour Drekkus, encourage him to to go the extra yard. That's the difference with a good tech, and an imposter, and this network has enough of those working on it now.

same reason gel was compliant but most were against it, i just feel my way for bringing the sheath up and a bit of extra conductor never hurt, glue always pours out of my 2pairs it may just not between 1 or 2 but its still sealed, im not gunna keep heating the thing till i split it, every now and then i stop by my joints to make sure there not getting butchered, a couple which have been by contractors, but besides that they are water free, and have pulled them out of pits fully submerged, i just feel my couple of differences are not going to have a negative impact on my joints

h1000 writes...

I am very interested to know why he intentionally submits sub-standard work

not compliant yes, sub-standard, far from it

hrdct writes...

not compliant yes, sub-standard, far from it

Non compliance is sub-standard. Look, best of luck to you but I have stated the reasons why your joints don't make it. I am sure for the most part they are not too bad, I have certainly seen a great deal worse, but I have given you the reasons why they would fail a real audit. Again, good on you for remaking joints, you are one of the few who do, so I will leave it at that.

If people were going around Remaking Every Joint Perfectly... where would we be? out of a job :) so stfu and give the kid a hand for actually sitting down and taking the time on the job to do these joints wrather then b!tch about it.

Good work mate, keep it up. Besides im sure when you get much more competant at joint remakes you will find quick ways to make it compliant, I mean every jointer out there started off making none compliant joints, its the way it is. Espeically now with the crack down on work load.

Considering your doing better than any other tech employed in the past 5 years, since your taking your time to learn unlike so many others. Good on ya champ :)

CreatioNz writes...

where would we be? out of a job :)

Yeah, let's not remake joints properly to keep us all employed, good one.

so stfu

No, you stfu...see, I can talk tough too.

give the kid a hand for actually sitting down and taking the time on the job to do these joints wrather then b!tch about it.

Actually, if you read my posts, you will see that I did give him a hand for remaking joints, all I did was point out that they would fail a real audit, that's hardly b!tching.

Besides im sure when you get much more competant at joint remakes you will find quick ways to make it compliant,

If you read his post, he is already very competant and also very well aware how to make them compliant, and he knows it would probably take no longer, he just chooses not to. For that, as I posted, was his choice, and I was just pointing out the reasons why they were not compliant.

Considering your doing better than any other tech employed in the past 5 years

You obviously don't get around much.

Look, I think I thoroughly explained myself to the kid at what I was trying acheive with my posts, if you believe near enough is good enough, then good for you. It was not a character assasination, I was giving the kid some pointers about his jointing, which apparantly he doesn't need, because he evidently knows what I have pointed out. So if your fan-club member no. 1 then hooray for you, but I would still fail the kid at audit because for the reasons I have gone to great length to explain, which I would not have done if there was no substance behind them. If those reasons are lost on you, or anyone else for that matter, I couldn't care less, It's no skin off my nose if you don't want to know. Please, no more hate mail, I have feelings you know ;)

h1000 writes...

If you really want to do the kid a favour Drekkus, encourage him to to go the extra yard.

In one sense he is going the extra yard by remaking so many joints, theres not many who will take the time anymore but yes it would be wise to remake the joints compliant if its so easy.If Telstra wants it done a certain way then do it that way despite any misgivings.You do have to cover yourself these days.
My comment wasn't aimed at you as you criticisms are constructive.

drekkus writes...

In one sense he is going the extra yard by remaking so many joints,

I would say he's going many extra yards by remaking them, but I just wish to encourage him to go go just one extra yard and to be compliant, not for the sake of it, or just to pass audit, but to realize that the specs have a reason for being there and they are not just a bunch of silly rules. If you truly believe that by doing a joint a certain way that you are protecting the joint more than what the spec requires, it would be unfair to get a non-conformance for that. But if you take the liberty to do something out of spec and it does not help the joint, I would call that non-compliant. He's so close to being there, it's frustrating, his joints don't look too bad, just a few things that would be easy fixed, but what can you do? It's his name on the pride tag, not mine.